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  #46  
Old 12-08-2009, 12:59 PM
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Thumbs up I am with you 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugaur View Post
I equate the situation to a person who sneaks into your house at night and in the morning demands that you respect his human rights and provide him with food and water. No one would tolerate that, yet some how some people think thats ok when it comes to the countries borders.
The church encourages it as most of the illegals are catholics. Poor and illeterate people are usually more likely to attend church and contributes to the churches influence. Believe me, were the Mexicans muslims, Jews or Hindus the church wouldnt care and would probably oppose it. The mosques and temples on the other hand might step in..............
Regarding the children, please understand why they are in this situation. Due to the choices made by their parents.
I think you and I can agree that illegals need to be treated with dignity. But they should not be coddled. . A US citizen who commits burglary, driving without a license, outstanding fines could easily be facing a jail term. The article wants you to feel outraged because her leg was shackled? Please read the headline again. Their strategy is to demonize the law enforcement when ever they try to enforce the law against illegals.
Yes the problem is deep seated and complicated. Giving amnesty would make them all legal, so the problem goes away! Just like you hear some people talk about drugs. Lets make all drugs legal, so the problem of illegal drugs will go away! What kind of solution is that?
I am with you 100%.
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  #47  
Old 12-08-2009, 01:02 PM
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Default I will call the Police

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoolahoous View Post
I think it all boils down to this scenerio
you have a seriously injured uninvited person in your front lawn about to die. what are you gonna do ?
Some people would want that 'problem' to go away and some would want to help the person. Our actions make what we are ..
BTW if anyone is interested, child birth generates 9 dols (measure of pain) of pain and at 10 dols a person dies. 9 dols is maximum pain a human being can suffer.

Take your pick.
I will call the Emergency services, to take the person off of my property...that is what I will do....
And you know what..they probably gave this woman epidural too....
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  #48  
Old 12-08-2009, 01:55 PM
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Default

To summarize this discussion.
The overwhelming majority of posters sympathized with the women and were uncomfortable with what the sheriff did.
A few members support the sheriff.
In democracy we have to learn to tolerate the minority opinion too, however, it stops at the level of toleration and does not become the law.
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  #49  
Old 12-08-2009, 02:08 PM
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Default unbelievable

its unbelievable what attitude some have on here...many on here are anti-illegal immigration which is understandable...but how can you condone such inhumane treatment...we are not animals...illegals are economic refugees in a way

just cause most of us on here were blessed to come up in decent families who afforded our education...it doesnt give us a right to treat the less fortunate with no dignity...what a shame

always "treat others the way you want to be treated"
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  #50  
Old 12-08-2009, 02:24 PM
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Default

I was amazed by the some of the members who supported such inhumane treatment. People are giving all sorts of comparison stories of what would you do if intruder breaks in , etc. This is a simple case of humanity and nothing more. Yes, the person involved is illegal and probably some action should be taken against that. But some of you guys need to remember that you guys are legal now but it does not take much to lose one's status. A erroneous AOS denial, losing a job. A pregnant woman who is in labor pain and about to deliver is not going to run away that you need to restrain her in shackles , especially when she has established a life here and also excited about the new born. You guys need to ask your mother, wife and sister about this story and get their opinion.

Yes the lady's crime should not go unpunished. But this country has all sorts of laws like racial discrimination, religious discrimination, age discrimination and the list goes on. And these laws are there for a reason. Reason: All these things DO happen.
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  #51  
Old 12-08-2009, 05:06 PM
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burnt has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomachan72 View Post
If it were for some of the antiimmigrant folks, my friend you (sugaur) wouldn't be here a day longer. you would be "out" in a wink from this country. so dont consider yourself too supportive of anti-immigration. Even citizens are favoring resolving the ilegal immigration crisis by granting some legality to those who are here ilegally. Dont support ilegal immigration but atleast dont bash those who show support to resolving this crisis. you and me are mere temporary visitors here. please remember that your country is not this. you are here seeking prosperity and so are they. this country has a way of dealing with them and us and neither has been satisfactory so far. So my friend why side with one and sound righteous? Sympathy is universal and is shown even to the person going to be hanged. If ilegal immigration was such a big crime then why are the united states citizens debating about granting green cards to 11 million of these people here????? these people are neighbours and have been dependent on each other since ever.let us not meddle in their affairs. they assimilate better into the american culture than us.
Well said
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  #52  
Old 12-08-2009, 06:05 PM
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Default Why don't you do as you say...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryandcosta View Post
its unbelievable what attitude some have on here...many on here are anti-illegal immigration which is understandable...but how can you condone such inhumane treatment...we are not animals...illegals are economic refugees in a way

just cause most of us on here were blessed to come up in decent families who afforded our education...it doesnt give us a right to treat the less fortunate with no dignity...what a shame

always "treat others the way you want to be treated"
`
..else, don't say what you don't do.
Hey, lets do this. Let's get a couple of homeless bums to just move into your house, while you are not there and then have them DEMAND repsect, humanity, food, medical care, clothing and shelter from YOU. ALL in the name of humanity.
Then let us see what your reaction is.......a homeless US citizen is in no way inferior to you so called "economic refugee".

Countries have borders and laws for a reason, and each country has the right to protect its borders and uphold the laws. Most of us being of Indian descent, should look into our own house. What is happening to Biharis in Maharashtra...are Biharis not Citizens of India.....we don;t even tolerate people of other states, coming to our state!! and expect US to just keep letting trespassers in?


The name of this Country is "UNITED STATES of AMERICA"...NOT "FREE_FOR_ALL REFUGEE CAMP"..

Last edited by dummgelauft; 12-08-2009 at 06:17 PM.
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  #53  
Old 12-08-2009, 06:25 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dummgelauft View Post
`
..else, don't say what you don't do.
Hey, lets do this. Let's get a couple of homeless bums to just move into your house, while you are not there and then have them DEMAND repsect, humanity, food, medical care, clothing and shelter from YOU. ALL in the name of humanity.
Then let us see what your reaction is.......a homeless US citizen is in no way inferior to you so called "economic refugee".

Countries have borders and laws for a reason, and each country has the right to protect its borders and uphold the laws. Most of us being of Indian descent, should look into our own house. What is happening to Biharis in Maharashtra...are Biharis not Citizens of India.....we don;t even tolerate people of other states, coming to our state!! and expect US to just keep letting trespassers in?


The name of this Country is "UNITED STATES of AMERICA"...NOT "FREE_FOR_ALL REFUGEE CAMP"..
Dummgelauft and Saguar, we all respect your opinions and know that you have a very valid reasons to hold on to your opinions. What I was saying is that if we take the majority of the posters who have responded / posted in this thread, we are seeing an overwhelming majoiry who support and /or sympathize with the pregnant girl. We are definitely not going to change our opinions and so are you. so let us stop this argument with a clear awareness that the majority of the posters are siding with the girl regarding the inhumane treatment delivered to her. We are not saying that we are correct but only saying that we are indeed the majority (thank God)
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  #54  
Old 12-08-2009, 06:46 PM
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Default

This sounds pretty much like discussions during philosophy 101 class....utilitarian vs principles! All this discussion will do is let you figure out which camp you are in.
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  #55  
Old 12-08-2009, 07:54 PM
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Default Agreed !

Truly agree with you and thomachan72. Not sure why folks disagree on this case without humane treatment. And that too for such cases when a pregnant woman who will not be running away during her labor pains - why needs to be shackled ?

In fact once my post started I was abused by many and redded too. Gave a green for you here. Again I am not supporting illegal immigration or undocumented stay. Anything which is legally punishable is fine as its law. But there are cases that have to be attended with leniency (at least this case).


Quote:
Originally Posted by ryandcosta View Post
its unbelievable what attitude some have on here...many on here are anti-illegal immigration which is understandable...but how can you condone such inhumane treatment...we are not animals...illegals are economic refugees in a way

just cause most of us on here were blessed to come up in decent families who afforded our education...it doesnt give us a right to treat the less fortunate with no dignity...what a shame

always "treat others the way you want to be treated"
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  #56  
Old 12-08-2009, 11:42 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomachan72 View Post
Dummgelauft and Saguar, we all respect your opinions and know that you have a very valid reasons to hold on to your opinions. What I was saying is that if we take the majority of the posters who have responded / posted in this thread, we are seeing an overwhelming majoiry who support and /or sympathize with the pregnant girl. We are definitely not going to change our opinions and so are you. so let us stop this argument with a clear awareness that the majority of the posters are siding with the girl regarding the inhumane treatment delivered to her. We are not saying that we are correct but only saying that we are indeed the majority (thank God)
I'd say fuck the majority. You think we are going to believe something as stupid? If you believe so much in humanity, why don't you distribute all the dollars you earned in the US among the poor in India.
That you won't do. But you'll preach lessons of humanity to others.

Last edited by a1b2c3; 12-08-2009 at 11:45 PM.
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  #57  
Old 12-09-2009, 01:21 AM
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Default

Originally Posted by thomachan72

Dummgelauft and Saguar, we all respect your opinions and know that you have a very valid reasons to hold on to your opinions. What I was saying is that if we take the majority of the posters who have responded / posted in this thread, (thank God)

OK Here Majority of the supported THOMACHAN72 version..

But majority of the folks here only analyzing the SHACKLES incident.

I am sure majority of the folks here read the complete article.

No one on this earth can not deny that that is inhumane act

But majority of the guys here missing the consequences of her intentional acts on society

1. Who were responsible to happen such inhumane act ? Was it Cop ?

2. The top most CRIME in this world is crossing another sovereignty country's territories ILLEGALLY and INTENTIONALLY ? BUT FORGIVE HER ?

3. Let her DRIVE with out driving license and KILL Children , Women and Everyone on the roadway ? FORGIVE HER ?

4. Let her shop lift for FOOD before her kids , Let her teach the same instead of sending them to SCHOOL, Let her make them CRIMINALS ? FORGIVE HER ?

5. Back in Home country, Let POOR from neighboring countirs enter into country on Humanity, let them attracted by anti social groups, Let those groups use them as PAWNS to kill Innocents ? FORGIVE THEM

6. .................................................. .

7. ................................................


6 .Every ACT has it's LIMITATIONS

Tx
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  #58  
Old 12-09-2009, 02:52 AM
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Default

I can debate you rationally under one condition; the moment you resort to personal attacks I will stop. I will assume you have a fair grip of English language and decent comprehension skills. If you agree then lets get this rolling:

First off, have you read the link which I have provided in my previous post ?

If you did, then I hope you will stop making simplistic comparisons of Mexicans coming into US to lets say Bangladeshi's coming into India.

"we all know how our Police forces and other investigative agencies treat and interrogate the people in their custody"
No, we ALL do not know that. Even if it is true in every part of the country and in each and every case, it does not make it right.

"Just one hypothetical question for these people...What if a pregnant female terrorist is arrested by police in India, just before she was about to engage in some terrorist act in India itself, is arrested and is shackled to her hospital bed, while she gives birth...would all of these "human rights supporters be saying these same things..."

What you are making is called a straw man argument (Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). In this case, the woman is NOT a terrorist nor
was she suspected of any such crime, so bringing such hypotheticals will not give any weight to your argument.

What you are seeing is a case of 'socio-economic' osmosis. Problems of this nature has been debated across many nations of the world. How you handle these issues goes to the core character of the nation. Shooting 'intruders' is perhaps one way of looking at it. Then such a solution cannot be undertaken by a 'super-power' who wants to hold moral superiority in the league of nations.

A few 'simple' cases of water-boarding people thought will not have any repercussions. How wrong those people were. Similarly, police torturing 'intruders' and defending such actions does not make it right. It just erodes the basic character of the entire country. Would you want to teach your own kids as to how to treat such issues ? Shooting, shackling, water-boarding etc ? Please do not give a flippant reply, do think about it before you hit the submit button.

Socio-economic solution along with a sensible immigration policy has been found to be far more sensible as compared to a pure enforcement policy. It has been proved over the years that a pure enforcement policy which many nativists support to be economically unviable. Minutemen patrolling the borders to Gov. Perry's multi million dollar border cameras, have proven to be ineffective and economically unfeasible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dummgelauft View Post
You are right on the money.
And all of us who are from India, let us not forget that INDIA faces similar issues of cross-border infiltration ( the reasons may be different), form some of our less than friendly neighboring countries.
Indian forces are trained and instructed to foil these guys from crossing over by whatever means necessary, including blowing their heads off with a well placed gunshot...and if arrested, we all know how our Police forces and other investigative agencies treat and interrogate the people in their custody...
Just one hypothetical question for these people...What if a pregnant female terrorist is arrested by police in India, just before she was about to engage in some terrorist act in India itself, is arrested and is shackled to her hospital bed, while she gives birth...would all of these "human rights supporters be saying these same things...

Where does the "humanity" that these "holier-than-thou" people are talking about, go.
We all feel happy when intruders are shot or arrested at out land borders....

If India has the right to protect its territory from illegal incursions by Citizens of other countries, why not US?

Last edited by qasleuth; 12-09-2009 at 03:03 AM.
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  #59  
Old 12-09-2009, 03:51 AM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by qasleuth View Post
I can debate you rationally under one condition; the moment you resort to personal attacks I will stop. I will assume you have a fair grip of English language and decent comprehension skills. If you agree then lets get this rolling:

First off, have you read the link which I have provided in my previous post ?

If you did, then I hope you will stop making simplistic comparisons of Mexicans coming into US to lets say Bangladeshi's coming into India.

"we all know how our Police forces and other investigative agencies treat and interrogate the people in their custody"
No, we ALL do not know that. Even if it is true in every part of the country and in each and every case, it does not make it right.

"Just one hypothetical question for these people...What if a pregnant female terrorist is arrested by police in India, just before she was about to engage in some terrorist act in India itself, is arrested and is shackled to her hospital bed, while she gives birth...would all of these "human rights supporters be saying these same things..."

What you are making is called a straw man argument (Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). In this case, the woman is NOT a terrorist nor
was she suspected of any such crime, so bringing such hypotheticals will not give any weight to your argument.

What you are seeing is a case of 'socio-economic' osmosis. Problems of this nature has been debated across many nations of the world. How you handle these issues goes to the core character of the nation. Shooting 'intruders' is perhaps one way of looking at it. Then such a solution cannot be undertaken by a 'super-power' who wants to hold moral superiority in the league of nations.

A few 'simple' cases of water-boarding people thought will not have any repercussions. How wrong those people were. Similarly, police torturing 'intruders' and defending such actions does not make it right. It just erodes the basic character of the entire country. Would you want to teach your own kids as to how to treat such issues ? Shooting, shackling, water-boarding etc ? Please do not give a flippant reply, do think about it before you hit the submit button.

Socio-economic solution along with a sensible immigration policy has been found to be far more sensible as compared to a pure enforcement policy. It has been proved over the years that a pure enforcement policy which many nativists support to be economically unviable. Minutemen patrolling the borders to Gov. Perry's multi million dollar border cameras, have proven to be ineffective and economically unfeasible.
wtf are u talking abt? water boarding? windsurfing? osmosis? archery? shacking...
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  #60  
Old 12-09-2009, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sugaur View Post
So why dont you see that this is not about helping a fellow human being in need. Everyone should do that. The sheriffs dept took her to the hospital to ensure that in case there is any complication, things could be take care of. Why? Because its the law and the majority in this country respect the law. No one, even illegals, can be denied emergent care. This would not happen if she were in Mexico or India. No free medical care there, and no one gives a shit about the rights of prisoners there.
If every one decides to choose for themselves which law they will obey and which they will ignore, society can not exist. And as I pointed out in my previous post, this woman has a history of repeated violations of the law and is NOT a victim that this biased article tries to portray her as.
And your theory about child birth leading to near death like pain is absolutely baseless. Pain is a subjective phenomenon and what is expireinced as a 9/10 by some hysterical yuppy, will be a 0 to others. Childbirth is a NATURAL phenomenon. Ask your grandma and she will tell you how every one delivered without epidurals and caeserians at her time.
sorry but DOL's is not my theory. Looks like you never seem to have seen a child birth. It is an ACTUAL unit.

List of unusual units of measurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

also if everyone goes through same amount of pain, that doesn't reduce the intensity. Let me ask you once you get laid off when your wife is pregnant. I am sure that you know that as soon as you are off the job on H1, unless you had AOS, you are ILLEGAL from same instant. Let me see where your principals hold. Status is a piece of paper which is created by human.
And imagine tying the hands to a bar when delivering a baby. I wonder we complaint about cramped seats in plane when flying to India (unless you fly business class, then probably you don't need GC) but think that chained to bed when delivering a baby is perfectly okay !
There is a law for illegals and they should get the punishment (deported), but that doesn't mean we should go out of way to device our own punishments to 'teach a lesson' to 'these illegals'. There are some basic Human rights. Even POW's are supposed to be treated with those human rights.
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