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  #5926  
Old 04-24-2012, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by kiran_pathuri View Post
I don't think he meant that Infosys people should not get GC. He is complaining about the multinational manager criteria of EB1 in which people are filing. Many people from India comes here on L1A with manager in their title. Even though their job responsibilities include testing or something like that, which typically won't be performed by a manager, they are eligible for filing under EB1 category. Strictly going by job responsibility they may not be eligible for EB1. As they consume EB1 visas, there won't be any spill overs for EB2.

Even though I am happy for those guys as they don't need to go through the same trouble we are going through, it may ultimately cause problems for genuine EB1 candidates in the future and to better qualified EB2 people because of no spill over.
While I agree that EB1 Managerial is sometimes abused (I myself saw a case) but are there not any abuse in EB2 ? Half the folks working for Desi Consulting companies file EB2 with "made up" job responsibility .

As for tester, after working for years in this industry covering almost all areas from Developer to Prod Support to Business Analyst to Project Manager , I would never undermine the role of a good tester. In my team, I would any time prefer a good tester than a bad developer. All those developers who think they are much superior --- remember you can put the testers out of job if you are "that" good. Have you been able to do that ?
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  #5927  
Old 04-24-2012, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by thomachan72 View Post
Teddy it will be interesting to see the rate of approvals for EB2 ROW during this and the next few months. Also the demand data that will be available soon will give an idea. Either way most of us are fortunate that the gates were opened even though for a short while permitting applications. Now we have to just wait and see how things progress in the coming months. Hopefully they will not waste any visas because they will have preadjudicated a lot of the Dec/Jan filers incase there is a spillover towards the end of this year.
EB2 ROW usage in the same period this year is higher than last year. On the Other site approvals from Oct - Apr this year to last year for primary applicants is 484 - 423. This month we have seen significant number of ROW approvals. Eb1 has already been confirmed to be higher in AILA updates by CO himself, EB1 usage on that site is in fact several times higher there are indications of EB1C in particular racing. So with all this SOFAD this year would be 34 - 12(EB1 for last year) = 22K. By all accounts 22K has already been allocated to I/C that is why we have this news of numbers used up for I/C.
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  #5928  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by thomachan72 View Post
Yes the line is pretty unclear when it comes to these multinational managers. Infosys is a multinational and if you have been a manager overseas then you may very well qualify according to the rules. I am not a software expert so dont know how they can play this rule but obviously they produce genuine documents from the company. I dont think anybody can simply say they were manager of xxx without providing sufficient proofs. Now whether they are more or lesser qualified than an EB2 software applicant is not relevent here so long as they follow the rules. Anyway lets not beat this dead horse any more Time for more predictions from Teddy
Homeland security should recommend USCIS to scrutnize Infosys's immigration docs submitted to USCIS....I think this will be the next big thing for Infosys. Infosys has utilized the already screwed up immigration sytem. Amazingly, things take longer time in US to come to light
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  #5929  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by krishmunn View Post
So what is your point ???? Infosys tester should not get a GC before you ..... and why exactly ?

disclaimer: I have never worked for Infosys --- my GC process is being sponsored by an 100+ employee American company where I am the only Indian employee ( out of total of 3 on H1)
Hmmm..first of all thanks for disliking the post, that's a great achievement.

Infosys has filed GC of 5 testers (We give them the scripts and they perform those steps as told from 8am to 5pm). One of those guys is a "Senior Project Manager" with 7 years of experience...all others are "Project Managers" with lesser experience.

Using designation and not responsibilities as a GC criteria is gross misuse of EB1-C. I thought that only people with "Policy making ability" qualify but here Infosys files for analysts and testers in the guise of Project Managers.

Tomorrow someone will open a testing company and have 3 employees - CEO, COO and CTO all doing testing and getting GC's in 5 months while other wait.
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  #5930  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by thomachan72 View Post
Yes the line is pretty unclear when it comes to these multinational managers. Infosys is a multinational and if you have been a manager overseas then you may very well qualify according to the rules. I am not a software expert so dont know how they can play this rule but obviously they produce genuine documents from the company. I dont think anybody can simply say they were manager of xxx without providing sufficient proofs. Now whether they are more or lesser qualified than an EB2 software applicant is not relevent here so long as they follow the rules. Anyway lets not beat this dead horse any more Time for more predictions from Teddy
That's not true. If you're a REAL manager in Infosys you should get EB1-c even with the not so strict EB1-c guidelines - that is called misusing a loophole that was meant for executives.

Calling a "Tester" and "Analyst" a "Global Program Manager" is straight fraud.
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  #5931  
Old 04-24-2012, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
Hmmm..first of all thanks for disliking the post, that's a great achievement.

Infosys has filed GC of 5 testers (We give them the scripts and they perform those steps as told from 8am to 5pm). One of those guys is a "Senior Project Manager" with 7 years of experience...all others are "Project Managers" with lesser experience.

Using designation and not responsibilities as a GC criteria is gross misuse of EB1-C. I thought that only people with "Policy making ability" qualify but here Infosys files for analysts and testers in the guise of Project Managers.

Tomorrow someone will open a testing company and have 3 employees - CEO, COO and CTO all doing testing and getting GC's in 5 months while other wait.
First, I have no clue what you mean by disliking the post. If you are talking about the Red/Green dots, I don't use those (and don't care).

Second, I agree there is abuse of EB1-C . But is there not abuse of EB2 ? Those working as Java developers through Desi Consulting companies show that the job requires MS ..... in US , even a Associate degree holder becomes Java developer.

Coming to "testers" .... if it is that useless a job why do you need to "give them a script" . You are a great developer and you know your code has 0 bugs . Put it straight into Production !

Seriously, after working for years in this industry, I think a good tester is vital for an organization. And normally testers do not just perform the steps as told --- it is more than that . They do write test cases after analysing the requirements; they do raise questions on bad or missing requirements ; they do automation ; and a whole lot more.

A developer writing his own test cases is a recepie for disaster because you will look it through only your eyes and sure miss some vital scenarios.

In my team , there are testers whom I value more than some of the developers.
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  #5932  
Old 04-24-2012, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by krishmunn View Post
First, I have no clue what you mean by disliking the post. If you are talking about the Red/Green dots, I don't use those (and don't care).

Second, I agree there is abuse of EB1-C . But is there not abuse of EB2 ? Those working as Java developers through Desi Consulting companies show that the job requires MS ..... in US , even a Associate degree holder becomes Java developer.

Coming to "testers" .... if it is that useless a job why do you need to "give them a script" . You are a great developer and you know your code has 0 bugs . Put it straight into Production !

Seriously, after working for years in this industry, I think a good tester is vital for an organization. And normally testers do not just perform the steps as told --- it is more than that . They do write test cases after analysing the requirements; they do raise questions on bad or missing requirements ; they do automation ; and a whole lot more.

A developer writing his own test cases is a recepie for disaster because you will look it through only your eyes and sure miss some vital scenarios.

In my team , there are testers whom I value more than some of the developers.
I'm not a developer at all and have limited clue about coding and I'm not a tester also. I manage the process and operations and work in technology in a Non-IT company. Infosys is a client of our for development and testing.

Testing is a very important part of the process but definitely does not qualify for EB1-C as Infosys does. Infosys basically calls a person a "Global Program Manager" while their actual full day duties are totally different - that's where the fraud lies. I hope you got the point - it's not the work of testers or developers - it's Infosys' misrepresentation of the facts.
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  #5933  
Old 04-24-2012, 03:32 PM
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I'm not a developer at all and have limited clue about coding and I'm not a tester also. I manage the process and operations and work in technology in a Non-IT company. Infosys is a client of our for development and testing.

Testing is a very important part of the process but definitely does not qualify for EB1-C as Infosys does. Infosys basically calls a person a "Global Program Manager" while their actual full day duties are totally different - that's where the fraud lies. I hope you got the point - it's not the work of testers or developers - it's Infosys' misrepresentation of the facts.
First , I do not understand how Infosys is a "client of your" and doing dev and testing ???? I guess you mean Infosys is a Vendor

Second, if you know of a "fraud" have you filed a complaint with ICE ? Just whining does not get you anything .

Third, have you been vocal about the EB2 frauds ? You will find tonns in this and other forums where people are working in EVV....VC models as a junior developer and what not and still getting GC through EB2 . I always wonder how come such bright and brilliant people work with so many V's in between !

Fourth, you earlier mentioned "We give them the scripts " . I am yet to understand who the "We" are . If those "We" are so good that they can cover every possible scenario and deliver perfect code , why they need some Inforsys testers (that too onsite!) to execute the tests. If you donot want to ship the work overseas, hire some interns and you will still save a lot of money. 5 Testers sitting onsite just executing prepared scripts does not make any sense whatsoever.
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  #5934  
Old 04-24-2012, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by krishmunn View Post
First , I do not understand how Infosys is a "client of your" and doing dev and testing ???? I guess you mean Infosys is a Vendor

Second, if you know of a "fraud" have you filed a complaint with ICE ? Just whining does not get you anything .

Third, have you been vocal about the EB2 frauds ? You will find tonns in this and other forums where people are working in EVV....VC models as a junior developer and what not and still getting GC through EB2 . I always wonder how come such bright and brilliant people work with so many V's in between !

Fourth, you earlier mentioned "We give them the scripts " . I am yet to understand who the "We" are . If those "We" are so good that they can cover every possible scenario and deliver perfect code , why they need some Inforsys testers (that too onsite!) to execute the tests. If you donot want to ship the work overseas, hire some interns and you will still save a lot of money. 5 Testers sitting onsite just executing prepared scripts does not make any sense whatsoever.
you're right - vendor, our company is the client.

When I talk about 5 ppl, it's over the last couple of years - right now we have one onsite who just took away 4 GC's for his family.

Regading how we work is not your concern, so you really can't tell us how we should staff our projects and whether we should have testers or not or whether we should hire interns to save money. There are a few ppl from Infosys onsite and the deve team is in India.

The issue is fraud by Infosys and you keep talking about the work of a developer vs tester vs other stuff. I love testers ok I hope they get their own category one day - maybe EB1-T. You keep digressing from the point of misrepresentation by Infosys and harp on my (never implied) hatred for testers.

And Yes, I have worked on projects that have 10 testers at once..don't discuss staffing, discuss the fradulent activities. Infosys files the application in a way that appears as if a "Senior Global Program Manager" is filing but infact he is a tester, who no way qualifies for EB1-C.

USCIS has lately tightened the noose around EB2 fraud and many apps are getting affected, I gope they do the same for EB1-C.
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  #5935  
Old 04-24-2012, 03:56 PM
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I think testing as a profession cant qualify to be at the same creative level as software development. Many of the software startups in silicon valley, start with a couple of developers working on idea. They code as well as write their own test cases. (I meant automated test cases). In cases of UI testing, the tools are not yet perfect, hence many UI testers are hired just to do manual testing. Even the requirements needed for Testers are not as stringent as software developers. I learnt that Google's Larry page hated the concept of hiring professional testers until he was convinced that software developers can spend their time better coding than do manual testing.

Now, this is not to degrade testing as a profession, but testing doesnt give you the creative possibilities that development can offer. It is a whole another topic, where one is capable of coding "well". Bad coders infact are more harmful than bad testers, because their impact is much worse.
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  #5936  
Old 04-24-2012, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
you're right - vendor, our company is the client.

When I talk about 5 ppl, it's over the last couple of years - right now we have one onsite who just took away 4 GC's for his family.

Regading how we work is not your concern, so you really can't tell us how we should staff our projects and whether we should have testers or not or whether we should hire interns to save money. There are a few ppl from Infosys onsite and the deve team is in India.

The issue is fraud by Infosys and you keep talking about the work of a developer vs tester vs other stuff. I love testers ok I hope they get their own category one day - maybe EB1-T. You keep digressing from the point of misrepresentation by Infosys and harp on my (never implied) hatred for testers.

And Yes, I have worked on projects that have 10 testers at once..don't discuss staffing, discuss the fradulent activities. Infosys files the application in a way that appears as if a "Senior Global Program Manager" is filing but infact he is a tester, who no way qualifies for EB1-C.

USCIS has lately tightened the noose around EB2 fraud and many apps are getting affected, I gope they do the same for EB1-C.
The bottomline still remains . If you know of a tester who got a GC "Global Manager" , have you filed a complaint with ICE ? If so, what is the response ? If not , why ?

While I have no say in your business model, any sensible person will think businesses are there to make money and not throw money . So, the question always remains --- if a job can be doen by a intern or by a junior person overseas , why contract a person here (the billing rate for Infosys will probably not be less than $70 at least) ? Unless , of course, you do not know what that person is doing
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  #5937  
Old 04-24-2012, 04:18 PM
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AND CAN YOU GUYS BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE SEVERAL PHYSICIANS WITH 5 YEARS OF MEDICAL SCHOOL+ 3 YEARS OF RESIDENCY + 3 YEARS OF FELLOWSHIP WAITING IN THE EB2 LINE.
The whole mess with EB2/ EB3 backlongs is due to the greed of desi companies and individuals who misused the immigration system. How can we leave our old ways behind after all? I hope justice department takes a closer look at this fraud and drive away these desi firms from this country. THIS WILL BE THE REAL SOLUTION TO THE CURRENT EMPLOYMENT BASED IMMIGRATION - I THINK SEN. GRASSLEY IS COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED IN HOLDING HR 3012.

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  #5938  
Old 04-24-2012, 04:32 PM
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I wonder if Senator Grassley is holding HR3012 due to the reasons you stated. Proper enforcement of the law has nothing to do with amendments to the law. They are different. If there are a lot of H1Bs, but not enough GCs, backlogs are inevitable.

Correct me if I am wrong but number of H1Bs = 65+20 = 80k only the last few years (but there were 135k to 195k per year during years 2001-2003) without any per country cap, and which are used up every year no matter what. But Number of GCs = 140k with per country cap and not all are used every year.
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  #5939  
Old 04-24-2012, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
Hmmm..first of all thanks for disliking the post, that's a great achievement.

Infosys has filed GC of 5 testers (We give them the scripts and they perform those steps as told from 8am to 5pm). One of those guys is a "Senior Project Manager" with 7 years of experience...all others are "Project Managers" with lesser experience.

Using designation and not responsibilities as a GC criteria is gross misuse of EB1-C. I thought that only people with "Policy making ability" qualify but here Infosys files for analysts and testers in the guise of Project Managers.

Tomorrow someone will open a testing company and have 3 employees - CEO, COO and CTO all doing testing and getting GC's in 5 months while other wait.

I dont understand why managers in US multinationals (who do not have 1 yr experience outside US in same company) are treated different from managers working for indian multinationals (but working in US and have 1 yr experience outside USA)? Forget about all fraud, but these 2 sets of people bring same value. So why treat them differently? Allow managers in US multinationals to file EB-1 even if they dont have 1 yr exp outside US to levelplay the field.
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  #5940  
Old 04-24-2012, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by velagale View Post
I think testing as a profession cant qualify to be at the same creative level as software development. Many of the software startups in silicon valley, start with a couple of developers working on idea. They code as well as write their own test cases. (I meant automated test cases). In cases of UI testing, the tools are not yet perfect, hence many UI testers are hired just to do manual testing. Even the requirements needed for Testers are not as stringent as software developers. I learnt that Google's Larry page hated the concept of hiring professional testers until he was convinced that software developers can spend their time better coding than do manual testing.

Now, this is not to degrade testing as a profession, but testing doesnt give you the creative possibilities that development can offer. It is a whole another topic, where one is capable of coding "well". Bad coders infact are more harmful than bad testers, because their impact is much worse.
Your post simply shows that you are yet to mature in industry.

First, not everything (even backend) can be automated .

Second, automation scripts are written by QA members , not developers

Third, bad testers are more harmful than bad coders. This is because , testers are the last check point before things go to production

Fourth, testing need a lot of creativity , probably more than coders. A tester is required to understand rquirement specs and/or use case scenarios and find the holes in that. A developer often miss scenarios and it is testers responsibility to catch those

Fifth, as we are moving to Agile and TDD , a QA person is becoming more and more critical to success of project. A TDD project cannot even start if you do not have a QA person in your team.

Sixth, software startups are started by Visionaries and Entrepreuners -- not coders. A heads down coder cannot start a startup.

Finally, in this forum I have seen enough bad blood --- EB2 hating EB1, EB2 hating EB3 porters, EB3 hating EB2, Developers hating Testers, Testers hating Developers, US degree holders hating Desi graduates. Is there a need for this ?
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