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2008candid
03-02-2016, 02:33 PM
I am surprised to see that, Oh uncle is not updating any breaking news as it used to be. I don't know about others. Looks like they are in workshop for something else.

Administrator2
03-07-2016, 06:26 PM
The difference between “Pro-Immigrant" and "Pro-Immigration"

Each one of us has heard many say that “We are a nation of immigrants”. But no matter what our personal belief is, we all acknowledge that immigration is a complicated and difficult subject.

Even though people tend to use these interchangeably, we believe that there is a very important distinction between “pro-immigration” and “pro-immigrant”.

Immigration Voice is a “pro-immigrant” organization. That means, our goal is to have immigrants treated fairly, have certain basic rights, so they are not exploited by employers, lawyers and other institutions. This also helps to prevent depressing wages or the displacement of US workers.

We will not (and never have), advocated to bring in more new immigrants from outside of United States in the current flawed system. Rather, we want that when immigrants come here (or when immigrants are brought here), that they have certain basic rights, which allows them their pursuit of happiness, without interfering with the working conditions of US workers.

Although the two words sound similar, “pro immigrant” is significantly different from “pro-immigration”.

“Pro-immigration” means when someone wants to bring in more immigrants from outside of the United States.

“Pro-immigrant” means to make sure that immigrants are treated fairly and they have certain basic rights so employers are unable to exploit them.

To put things in perspective, here is what we have observed:

Immigration Lawyers are “pro-immigration” because they want more new immigrants to be brought into United States. New immigrants coming into US mean more business for them. So their position is self-serving. And generally, Immigration Lawyers are “anti-immigrants” because they don’t want skilled immigrants to get certain basic rights, including right to their own paperwork. We think that Immigration Lawyers believe that if immigrants have more control over the process, then fewer employers will be incentivized to hire more immigrants, which will result in reduced business for immigration lawyers. For a long time, Immigration Lawyers have turned a blind eye to the exploitation and abuse of immigrants by their employers. So Immigration Lawyers are “pro-Immigration” but “anti-immigrant”. But when Immigration Lawyers go to Congress, they pretend as if they speak for and on behalf of “immigrants”, which is not the case, because they only speak for themselves. Immigration Lawyers and their organizations push for more complicated laws and regulations to make sure that everyone who has anything to do with immigration are forced to hire lawyers. That is the primary goal of the lobbying done by immigration lawyers.

Immigration Voice is a “pro-immigrant” organization. We want immigrants to have certain rights including the ability to change employer with as much ease as everyone else in the system, so that immigrant employees are not held captives to their employers. Immigration Voice is a “pro-immigration” organization, but only for a system which is “pro-immigrant” and “pro-US workers”. We have always held that new immigrants should not be brought into the current flawed system because the current system of H-1B and L-1 visa system makes immigrant employees captives of their employers, allowing exploitation of immigrants, who come here to seek freedom and start a new life. This also leads to wage depression and displacement of Americans, which is widely documented. Recent events at companies like Disney & Southern California Edison received widespread media coverage.

A system which is not “pro-immigrant” and that brings in more new immigrants will end up hurting America, Americans, and the new immigrants. That system may work great for handful of employers and immigration lawyers (as is the case right now), but in the long run, such a system is doomed to fail because it defies the laws of nature.

Companies usually create front groups in Washington to push for their skilled immigration agenda. They usually hire big name professors to do “research” and “studies” that have a predetermined outcome. These studies are all paid-for and used by front group of companies to lobby and push for their agenda. Companies want more workers and they use bumper sticker slogans like “if you oppose H-1B/L-1 visa then you are against immigrants”, “H-1B/L-1 immigrants come in and create jobs”, “if you oppose H-1B/L1 visa then you don’t want the next entrepreneur to come and create companies” etc. All of which are mostly nonsense because immigrants on H-1B/L-1 visa cannot change jobs. 99.9% of H-1B/L-1 visa holders are unable to start their own business. Almost all of the businesses started by immigrants are after they get their green cards. But companies distort facts about the businesses started by immigrants to push for their H-1B/L-1 agenda. Companies have deep pockets. Apart from extensively lobbying, they conduct several fundraisers and other initiatives to influence policy making. The whole purpose is to ensure that laws/policies cannot be changed to somehow allow skilled immigrants to slip away from their grip. They push for regulations to deny their employees copies of their own paper work file because as per the current system, immigrants require copies of their own paperwork file to change employers. Companies push for laws that will add workers in the system on the pretext that they can’t find more workers here. In essence, companies want to increase immigration, but they don’t want immigrants to get certain basic rights. This is applicable to both, large US tech companies and Indian outsourcing companies.

Inference

Immigration Voice is the largest non-profit grassroots organization of skilled immigrants on H-1B and L-1 visa in United States. We are fiercely opposed to the current H-1B visa program and L-1 visa program because it causes exploitation of skilled immigrants and displacement of US workers. Living in the trenches we know all too well how the system is abused by employers and immigration lawyers to exploit immigrants. Usually, immigration lawyers not only give immigration advice to employers, but give business advice to companies on how to use immigrant employee’s immigration status as long term employee retention insurance policy. The whole system is stacked against immigrant employee and US workers.

To make it simple to understand who stands where on the overall immigration, here is a table that breaks down different positions. This table has been created based on our experience working with each of these groups and based on our observation about where different groups stand on the overall issues of skilled immigration:


https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/12791081_1096021880464035_1772783667819390084_n.pn g?oh=36e7a5c0925038ee39f24b39af81f13a&oe=5793DD59

d.kiran
03-07-2016, 06:39 PM
I got a telegram update and just now got caught up with quite a bit of stuff happening.

I don't understand the latest update though. This is common knowledge right?

I am not sure if this is a FYI post or was there an action associated with this.

Administrator2
03-07-2016, 07:17 PM
I got a telegram update and just now got caught up with quite a bit of stuff happening.

I don't understand the latest update though. This is common knowledge right?

I am not sure if this is a FYI post or was there an action associated with this.

You are right. There is nothing new about this. This should be common knowledge. But a lot of people don't know the reality. So we are forced to put it out there so people can see and decide for themselves.

kamakazee
03-07-2016, 07:58 PM
Immigration Voice has also been benefited by greencard backlogs. Number of members have increased substantially because of the large number of workers waiting for greencards. IV might be the only organization which is working hard to make sure that green card issues of high skilled workers are resolved and it is ceased to exist.

Administrator2
03-07-2016, 08:18 PM
Immigration Voice has also been benefited by greencard backlogs. Number of members have increased substantially because of the large number of workers waiting for greencards. IV might be the only organization which is working hard to make sure that green card issues of high skilled workers are resolved and it is ceased to exist.

"benefited'? Are you out of your mind. Who did IV benefit you idiot? Just because someone is signing up to the forum doesn't mean IV is "benefiting". And for the record, we said so many times that we would rather close down after the issue is resolved.

Ya that might sound illogical to you because lawyers don't think like this. Lawyers just want more immigrants to come in so they can make more money.

Cyrus wrote in a blog post today that -
"All this demonstrates the need for more H-1B numbers rather than less as H-1B workers....". Again, he just "forgot" to mention that immigrants on H-1B visas are exploited and that they are stuck in long green card backlogs.

All that immigration lawyers want is fresh meat, so they can make more money off of them.

d.kiran
03-07-2016, 08:22 PM
Immigration Voice has also been benefited by greencard backlogs. Number of members have increased substantially because of the large number of workers waiting for greencards. IV might be the only organization which is working hard to make sure that green card issues of high skilled workers are resolved and it is ceased to exist.

Wouldn't that apply to basically every single cause related charity? I mean you could replace IV with American Cancer Society and say that American Cancer society wants people to get cancer because otherwise they will not exist.

That line of reasoning is illogical.

Now, I am not a member of IV, nor am I a fan of everything they do. For example, I don't think it is very becoming of a professional organization claiming to be "highly skilled", to use words like boot licker. But that's a very small detail in the overall scheme of things.

I sincerely believe that IV is the only organization that is fighting for immigrant rights. I have gone through most submissions by the lawyers, trying to give them the benefit of doubt, but they have not addressed our core issues. AILA essentially focused on the 90 EAD part and ignored everything else.

I don't blame them. AILA is acting in their own self-interest as do most humans. I just understand that IV's self-interest and my self-interest match. The day it doesn't they'll lose their members.

ROFL_Ghonchu
03-07-2016, 08:22 PM
Immigration Voice has also been benefited by greencard backlogs. Number of members have increased substantially because of the large number of workers waiting for greencards. IV might be the only organization which is working hard to make sure that green card issues of high skilled workers are resolved and it is ceased to exist.

What do you even mean by this? Do you think IV volunteers go to washington dc or to meet their congressmen by wasting their own vacations are going for fun or just doing photosessions? Increase in members is a sad thing for the whole community that just shows severity of backlog. It is not a proud thing to show for. By the way arent you the same id who leaked siskinds confidential letter to iv? Because of the reputation of your id, i cant even say that last sentence is written in good faith

d.kiran
03-07-2016, 08:24 PM
Also, for the record, are you Anirban or are you just using a name that is similar to the one he usually uses?

ROFL_Ghonchu
03-07-2016, 08:26 PM
Also, for the record, are you Anirban or are you just using a name that is similar to the one he usually uses?

He is not Anirban obviously. I have that much faith in a human not to show that much foolishness. Whoever that is must be very close to siskind as he leaked siskinds confidential letter.

abcdgc
03-07-2016, 08:34 PM
Also, for the record, are you Anirban or are you just using a name that is similar to the one he usually uses?

who the hell cares for that asshole.... he is always brown nosing Gotcher and Siskind

longwait4gc
03-07-2016, 10:29 PM
The difference between “Pro-Immigrant" and "Pro-Immigration"



Why are the news outlets not aware of this when they write H1-B creating jobs. Is it because the media is paid or ignorant?

2008candid
03-07-2016, 10:44 PM
Immigration Voice has also been benefited by greencard backlogs. Number of members have increased substantially because of the large number of workers waiting for greencards. IV might be the only organization which is working hard to make sure that green card issues of high skilled workers are resolved and it is ceased to exist.

I remember this asshole, who post something from one of the fu***n immigration lawyers post/quote in this forum, and this is the guy he/she is very active with some kitt.. who work against IV. I personally don't believe IV got anything benefited from this. They are working for EB Indian/backlogged people, there will be expense for anything..

2008candid
03-07-2016, 10:49 PM
I agree with above post from d.. as the words IV use is not appropriate for 'High skilled' immigrants, but I believe that these are coming from their frustration. I am not an active member or participated in any of the IV's events, so I don't know what is happening inside and never asked for.. but I believe that IV is the only one org in US fighting for EB immigrants. Thank you for all your efforts IV.

Administrator2
03-07-2016, 10:49 PM
Why are the news outlets not aware of this when they write H1-B creating jobs. Is it because the media is paid or ignorant?

Paid

hil3182
03-07-2016, 10:55 PM
Why are the news outlets not aware of this when they write H1-B creating jobs. Is it because the media is paid or ignorant?

It's a mixture of several things. I am completely ignoring the obviously biased articles like the Chamber of commerce publications in this comment.

If you see something in less reputable "bloggy" type news outlets like huffington post, roll call or the hill - you can be fairly certain it is either paid or written by someone has an agenda. This (http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/technology/247270-reliable-infrastructure-and-a-skilled-workforce-are-vital-for) is a good example of that kind of an article - you might find the comments interesting :D

The other kind of articles are the ones in more reputable publications. These are the cumulative results of 100's of millions of dollars spent by lobbying organizations to shape opinion. If you look at this (https://youtu.be/2tbylE_IMiA?t=2461) video here, you will see what I mean by that. We believe our "friends" at fwd.us brought that fellow in and staged managed that soundbite.

dkshitij
03-08-2016, 10:43 AM
Is it ok to post this chart on our individual facebook page and reference immigration voice?

The Alchemist
03-08-2016, 10:52 AM
Absolutely!

In fact this is posted on our FB page as well -- facebook.com/notes/1095989987133891

GC2022
03-08-2016, 11:08 AM
If anyon is interested in knowing the exact positions of each of these companies. you can see for yourself the comments each of them provided when a request for information was asked.

Here are some notable exceptions which people might find surprising. Writing from memory.

1) FWD.US - These people have not spoken a word about the backlogs. They actually are a lame organization and are coming to the party for the chips. These people have responded with a non answer to the most important question asked in 10 years. The RFI specifically mentioned that H4 EAD is part of another regulation please donot write about it here. Yet they chose to write it here , thats the only thing they wrote. What a joke.

2) Ron gotcher or Greg siskind did not have a comment for the RFI.

3) AILA did not mention about the EAD for I 140 or backlogs, they wrote a lengthy document batting for corporations and doing their dance.

4) Sheela murthy wrote a long document where she did mention "When PD is not current we should let people file for I 485" but she did not elaborate or mention the specifics, she did not mention about the backlogs or the word abuse. She did however, choose to write in detail about how consulting companies are suffering million dollar losses due to incorrect adjudication of H1bs and issues with stamping.

Administrator2
03-08-2016, 11:23 AM
Is it ok to post this chart on our individual facebook page and reference immigration voice?

Absolutely, please feel free to do so

buffbloke
03-08-2016, 11:24 AM
The should be on the front page of the IV home page.

buffbloke
03-08-2016, 11:31 AM
The chart should be on the front page of IV website.

Administrator2
03-08-2016, 11:39 AM
If anyon is interested in knowing the exact positions of each of these companies. you can see for yourself the comments each of them provided when a request for information was asked.

Here are some notable exceptions which people might find surprising. Writing from memory.

1) FWD.US - These people have not spoken a word about the backlogs. They actually are a lame organization and are coming to the party for the chips. These people have responded with a non answer to the most important question asked in 10 years. The RFI specifically mentioned that H4 EAD is part of another regulation please donot write about it here. Yet they chose to write it here , thats the only thing they wrote. What a joke.

2) Ron gotcher or Greg siskind did not have a comment for the RFI.

3) AILA did not mention about the EAD for I 140 or backlogs, they wrote a lengthy document batting for corporations and doing their dance.

4) Sheela murthy wrote a long document where she did mention "When PD is not current we should let people file for I 485" but she did not elaborate or mention the specifics, she did not mention about the backlogs or the word abuse. She did however, choose to write in detail about how consulting companies are suffering million dollar losses due to incorrect adjudication of H1bs and issues with stamping.

FWD is the lamest organization. Many immigrants from different countries (including India) seem to think that any leftist organization is doing lord's work. People need to see through the bullshit that any group is doing and using immigrants as tool/weapon to push for their own agenda (which is often against the agenda of the immigrants supporting FWD). If you follow FWD or if you get their emails, then email back and thrash them about what have they done for rights of immigrants already here. For OPT, FWD had setup separate website to generate comments. That did not help because we generated more positive comments for OPT. But if you compare FWD's action for OPT v/s AC21 reg, you will see that they did not put any action for AC21 reg. These guys are all only interested in getting more immigrants from outside, so their masters can hold these immigrants as captives, to exploit immigrants, drive down wages and displace Americans. That is the only purpose of whatever these guys do. They are just another front group for companies.

In the end, it doesn't matter is a group or a politicians is leftist or a right-wing nut job. What matters is, whether someone is "pro-immigrant". Not "pro-immigration" i.e. getting new people from outside, but, "pro-immigrant" i.e. rights of immigrants that are already here.

If WH doesn't come out with the fixes to AC21 regulation, we will be left with no choice but to expose and attack Obama Administration that they were less than ordinary, just like others, saying one thing to get elected, and doing something totally opposite when the opportunity was presented. We will define his legacy for years to come and tell it to our children and everyone we meet and talk too.

About immigration lawyers, we think they are all bunch of liars who say one thing and do something else behind close door. So there is no point in talking about any of these lawyers. Anyone expecting anything different is plain foolish, living in fools paradise.

nvedia
03-08-2016, 12:12 PM
1) FWD.US - These people have not spoken a word about the backlogs. They actually are a lame organization and are coming to the party for the chips. These people have responded with a non answer to the most important question asked in 10 years. The RFI specifically mentioned that H4 EAD is part of another regulation please donot write about it here. Yet they chose to write it here , thats the only thing they wrote. What a joke.



I completely agree with FWS.us thing
Some of us repeatedly posted in their facebook page asking what they are doing for the I140 backlogged skilled immigrations. They kept ignoring our posts with no repsonse
Its really ironic that FWD.us was founded by Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook which has lot of H1B employees but cares only for illegals/ DAPA/DACA

hil3182
03-08-2016, 12:28 PM
I completely agree with FWS.us thing
Some of us repeatedly posted in their facebook page asking what they are doing for the I140 backlogged skilled immigrations. They kept ignoring our posts with no repsonse
Its really ironic that FWD.us was founded by Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook which has lot of H1B employees but cares only for illegals/ DAPA/DACA

We think that this concern for the undocumented in FWD is just eyewash to curry favor among the Democrats because Democrats frown upon groups that push for more high-skilled visa's without taking the issues of the undocumented into consideration (It's the whole CIR argument). We believe that behind the scenes, (especially with Republican's), FWD is all about more H1-B because H1-B's can create companies, innovate and grow the economy :cool:

nvik16
03-08-2016, 02:05 PM
If the white house f**ks up and does screw us , as the trend has been all these years. Do we have a plan to fight back and create a ruckus ?

gten
03-08-2016, 03:20 PM
I completely agree with FWS.us thing
Some of us repeatedly posted in their facebook page asking what they are doing for the I140 backlogged skilled immigrations. They kept ignoring our posts with no repsonse
Its really ironic that FWD.us was founded by Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook which has lot of H1B employees but cares only for illegals/ DAPA/DACA

FWD.us asks for more H1-B's... that's all they really care about.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/mark-zuckerberg-immigrants-are-the-key-to-a-knowledge-economy/2013/04/10/aba05554-a20b-11e2-82bc-511538ae90a4_story.html

The other add-ons (path to citizenship for undocumented..etc) are to gather more support and be likable by a broader group of people.

GC2022
03-08-2016, 04:47 PM
FWD.US is all about entrepreneuship they claim. Their poster child Ruchi went and cried in the congress because of her GC backlog for several years ( she is a multimillionare from the FB money she made as a early employee) She and her husband are one of the co founders of the organization, They both came to US like some of us and were stuck in H1b for several years.

Yet they have done nothing for H1b backlogs, they want to fight for Undocumented, they want to fight for the Entrepreneur visa but not for 1 million people who could have very well been entrepreneurs if not for H1b backlogs.

They did not make any effort except write a 1 page comment on the regulation WRT the AC21. they did not push for it via their members they did not request for it when there was an oppurtunity to make a statment. Yeah, so , fuck them.

DMX17
03-08-2016, 05:05 PM
Although I am absolutely confused about theories in immigration…..I had to write a long one.

It appears to me that all economic arguments in favor of more immigration are made in the following manner when they say immigration is an “opportunity” and not a “problem”:

1) New immigrants “complement” the workforce (i.e. not displace or take away jobs from Americans). After all, these are jobs Americans do not want to or cannot do OR Americans should be doing a better job than this. Who wants to pick fruits all day while you may be working in an air conditioned Walmart?

2) Giving these low paying “complementing” jobs to new immigrants would allow the Americans to then work in a better job which requires more communication/managerial type skills (e.g. by hiring a low skilled construction worker for cheap to free Americans to become construction manager). This is in theory increases wages of Americans assuming all Americans follow the direction told.


In other words, imagine politicians telling Americans “let the poor immigrant take that dirty job from you so that you can go on to take a better job”. I think that I can kind of understand the above more easily with the low skilled (e.g. construction workers) immigrants. But, the problem is by lumping low and high-skilled immigrants together in one group as “complementing” and also asking for more high-skilled H-1Bs, the high-skilled American is probably facing competition in the supposedly “high-skilled” work that they should be doing by allowing the low skilled immigrant to “complement” the workforce.

I cannot understand the theory when it is applied explicitly to the high-skilled immigrants (without including low skilled) and I am at a complete loss as to the complementary nature of high-skilled workers. This again forces the smart people (economists) to combine low and high skilled because, without low skilled in the mix, it is not that easy to ask people to swallow the high-skilled pill and tell them “they complement you” when in reality we are all doing and competing for the same high skilled jobs. So other high skilled statistics must be made available for policy making i.e. shortage, best and the brightest, immigrant founders, creating 2.6 jobs or whathaveyou to tell Americans and their politicians: “best and brightest immigrant founders are creating jobs for Americans so do not worry and allow them in” and “the more the better”. This is where FWD, immigration lawyers etc. will come in with their only pro-immigration goal of bringing in more H-1Bs (or other work visas).

Even if the other best and the brightest statistics were 100% true, the current system is not helping those H-1B people already here who actually want to create jobs as H-1Bs are not starting businesses while waiting for priority date to become current! Consequently, the proposed economic benefit (if true) to Americans (by immigrant founders creating jobs etc.) is delayed by the indentured servitude of H-1B in backlogs**. And if the doubtful assumption that H-1Bs complement the Americans is actually not true, then H-1Bs lower the wage of American workers “similarly employed” until the time the H-1B is free for job mobility and to create companies as advertised by the smart people who want more H-1Bs.

Finally, all workers, no matter low skilled or high skilled, want mobility and freedom. If a low skilled worker with less rights wants mobility and rights to take higher jobs (which the Americans were told they can do if we brought in the immigrant!), this is a problem not only for the company that brought in the immigrant for cheap labor but also for the Americans because allowing job mobility will create more competition for them, and who will replace the low skilled worker when he/she changes job? This is only true in the "complementing" theory.

For the high skilled workers, if it is not true that high-skilled workers complement the Americans, then lack of job mobility is damaging to Americans. I do not believe high skilled workers complement Americans. According to a study, a green card could mean a pay raise of about $12,000 per year for some. So, for high skilled, I believe it is true that dilution is the solution and the cost of green card is peanuts for employers if backlog continues for ever and we are immobile.

As Milton Friedman said “illegal immigration is a good thing as long as it is illegal”. But applying such thing to legal immigration where we do not complement Americans is not a good thing.

**Unless you consult Greg Siskind who can help you IF YOU ARE WILLING TO TAKE THAT RISK OF LOSING THE TIME AND MONEY IF YOU DO NOT GET YOUR GREEN CARD

javelin768
03-08-2016, 09:10 PM
I am just happy to see the sleazy lawyer types are getting their Panties in a Bunch trying to come up with an explanation why they "don't want to engage with ImmigrationVoice"!!!
I love this!! :):):)

stuckinline
03-08-2016, 11:45 PM
I am just happy to see the sleazy lawyer types are getting their Panties in a Bunch trying to come up with an explanation why they "don't want to engage with ImmigrationVoice"!!!
I love this!! :):):)

I really love how the lawyers are promoting SIRA.

My understanding is IV does not support any H1-B increase without a corresponding Green Card increase because it would just make the backlog worse. To me this is a commonsense position to take. The Lawyers (who just want more immigrants and don't want to give us rights) are totally ok with the concept of a separate H1-B bill that does not increase the number of Green Cards - they will deal with the Green Card issue "later".

IV is putting its foot down and saying no more H1-B without more Green Cards. The issue is more Green Cards means more Immigation and that isn't happening outside CIR. Republican's hate any increase in immigration and the Democrats hate any increase in immigration outside of CIR.**

So the lawyers and companies are frustrated. They start supporting a pro H1-B advocacy organization and use it to try to marginalized IV, get more H1-B without increasing Green Cards and make all our ridiculously long waits - even longer! Win Win Win!!!


**IV's solution to this stalemate is a targeted per-country Bill which is pretty much the only thing that can pass.

DMX17
03-09-2016, 01:22 AM
For example, I don't think it is very becoming of a professional organization claiming to be "highly skilled", to use words like boot licker.

They are bootlickers. One bootlicker "kamakazee" again made his special appearance on IV which we saw yesterday. He is a bootlicker sent by Siskind. There are others on twitter and forums.