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Administrator2
11-30-2012, 09:11 AM
House debate on STEM will start at 9:30am this morning. Vote is scheduled at 11am. The bill is expected to pass in the House. It is unlikely that this bill will be taken up in the Senate.

Here is the link to C-span to watch STEM debate live -
Live Video - C-SPAN | C-SPAN (http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN/)

pd052011
11-30-2012, 09:17 AM
Can we have another phrase for zero-sum? Since yesterday, it must have been uttered at least a hundred times.

for3012
11-30-2012, 10:36 AM
House just passed the bill !!!

pd052011
11-30-2012, 10:41 AM
Senate has to pass an POTUS has to sign it..Long way to go before we celebrate :D

go_guy123
11-30-2012, 10:50 AM
House just passed the bill !!!

House is under GOP control...the problem is with the Senate which is under Democratic party.

smuggymba
11-30-2012, 10:54 AM
House is under GOP control...the problem is with the Senate which is under Democratic party.

Rep Laborador made a good comment - POTUS asked for a stand alone STEM bill before the elections and now that the house has given him, the WH says it does not fit with WH's long term CIR objectives. He even mentioned that the bill should be sent to POTUS to call his bluff:)

pd052011
11-30-2012, 10:59 AM
They shouldn't have taken the DVs away. That is the problem that Dems have with this bill. They should have made a provision to minimize fraud in DV or offer the DVs another path.

gvenkat
11-30-2012, 10:59 AM
House will not even take it up, Do you really think they will want to take it up and Embarrass the president, who is clearly against this.

gvenkat
11-30-2012, 11:01 AM
Meant to say Senate. :)

nareshk78
11-30-2012, 11:05 AM
I am sure democrats would want to use STEM & HR 3012 provisions as bargaining chips when CIR comes into picture. So, unlikely that they will pick them in senate before end of the year.

pd052011
11-30-2012, 11:07 AM
Does IV have any statistics on how many donors/members etc would be benefited by this STEM bill?

vsrinir
11-30-2012, 12:27 PM
I am hoping H.R.3012 will be attached to STEM Bill in Senate!!!

Every one benefits!!!

Support IV!!!

spicy_guy
11-30-2012, 12:31 PM
I am hoping H.R.3012 will be attached to STEM Bill in Senate!!!

Every one benefits!!!

Support IV!!!

I second this...

+100 :D

pd052011
11-30-2012, 12:34 PM
What is the Senate protocol on such changes? Can a related bill be attached to one that has passed the House?

sunny2007
11-30-2012, 01:15 PM
Count Down for H.R.3012 : We are left only with 14 days in this Lame Duck.

Nov 30 - Not Released by Sen Chuck Schumer yet from Immigration Sub-Committee
Dec 1st - No Luck
Dec 2nd - No Luck

Gloom or Glory ?

bpratap
11-30-2012, 01:28 PM
Two major caucus in Democratic side is Hispanic Caucus and Black Caucus.

Major beneficiary of Diversity visa is African Countries, so it doesn't go with the black Caucus. so its DoA in Democrat controlled Senate.

unluckydude
11-30-2012, 02:07 PM
Two major caucus in Democratic side is Hispanic Caucus and Black Caucus.

Major beneficiary of Diversity visa is African Countries, so it doesn't go with the black Caucus. so its DoA in Democrat controlled Senate.

So will be the CIR ! Look at thie article below.

Don’t believe the post-election hype: Immigration reform is unlikely in 2013 - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/don%E2%80%99t-believe-the-post-election-hype--immigration-reform-is-unlikely-in-2013-164838132.html)

spicy_guy
11-30-2012, 02:15 PM
So will be the CIR ! Look at thie article below.

Don’t believe the post-election hype: Immigration reform is unlikely in 2013 - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/don%E2%80%99t-believe-the-post-election-hype--immigration-reform-is-unlikely-in-2013-164838132.html)

Well, for us now, HR 3012 is the only hope. that too ONLY if it happens during the lame-duck session (?). Now STEM bill joins the doorsteps of Senate. But HR 3012 has bright chances than STEM. Because STEM is opposed by President (and democrats) from the very beginning explicitly.

CIR is miles away. Can't even be on the forefront and we all know CIR is much much bigger than STEM and HR 3012 combined. And sadly, CIR main focus is to deal with illegals then legals. Can't be in denial here.

Svee
11-30-2012, 02:32 PM
HR3012 - there does not seem to be much about this in the news...I guess Washington would be really worry about that only in 2016... when the next elections are due.

( Not skeptical, but why would they be interested to pass/bring it up.... what is in for them in 3012?)

bpratap
11-30-2012, 03:07 PM
In my View the latest consensus in CIR will be short lived. We can already see that in the strip down version of DREAM Act. -> Achieve Act. Without a pathway to Citizenship Dem's are not gonna agree. and Rep's are not gonna give Citizenship.

In a country where "I" prevails than "We" all lawmakers will be more interested to secure their own positions than their love for the country and who takes the White House. So when it actually comes to Vote on any REAL Bill, we can see the people's true color.

While, I would love to see CIR to be passed sooner than later, I personally wouldn't count on CIR, it will be juz another distraction for getting any real simple Immigration related bills to get passed.

pappu
12-03-2012, 09:48 AM
Why Immigration Reform is Destined to be Another Obamacare - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/singularity/2012/12/03/why-immigration-reform-is-destined-to-be-another-obamacare)

sunny2007
12-03-2012, 11:01 AM
Why Immigration Reform is Destined to be Another Obamacare - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/singularity/2012/12/03/why-immigration-reform-is-destined-to-be-another-obamacare) Best is to remove 25k from diversity lottery and provide the same to stem.

It will be a win-win situation for everyone.

greyhair
12-03-2012, 11:14 AM
Best is to remove 25k from diversity lottery and provide the same to stem.

It will be a win-win situation for everyone.


It is not that simple maths. I am a STEM applicant. But the bill that passed the House last week is a bunch of baloney. They have a label of STEM on that bill and everyone is drooling over this bill. All that this bill is doing is - create new categories, everyone will end up spending millions (rather billions) of dollars to apply in new categories, and there will be new backlogs in the new categories.

I did a calculation that if this bill (labelled as STEM, although it is not actually STEM) were to pass, people like us in backlogs will end up spending $4 billion to apply in new categories and then wait for 20 years in the new backlog. It will work great for immigration lawyers because they will earn a lot of money, but it will be a disaster for people like in the backlogs.

It seems Wadhwa doesn't know what he is talking. With his articles I get the impression that he doesn't have grasp of the issue. He will jump up and down on anything called STEM without even knowing if it will help or hurt STEM applicants like us.

chtummala
12-03-2012, 11:26 AM
It is not that simple maths. I am a STEM applicant. But the bill that passed the House last week is a bunch of baloney. They have a label of STEM on that bill and everyone is drooling over this bill. All that this bill is doing is - create new categories, everyone will end up spending millions (rather billions) of dollars to apply in new categories, and there will be new backlogs in the new categories.

I did a calculation that if this bill (labelled as STEM, although it is not actually STEM) were to pass, people like us in backlogs will end up spending $4 billion to apply in new categories and then wait for 20 years in the new backlog. It will work great for immigration lawyers because they will earn a lot of money, but it will be a disaster for people like in the backlogs.

It seems Wadhwa doesn't know what he is talking. With his articles I get the impression that he doesn't have grasp of the issue. He will jump up and down on anything called STEM without even knowing if it will help or hurt STEM applicants like us.

it might not be be backlogged much .. it is like adding 55k visas to eb2 .. any way they need to change the caps , per country limits

immigrant2007
12-03-2012, 12:21 PM
It is not that simple maths. I am a STEM applicant. But the bill that passed the House last week is a bunch of baloney. They have a label of STEM on that bill and everyone is drooling over this bill. All that this bill is doing is - create new categories, everyone will end up spending millions (rather billions) of dollars to apply in new categories, and there will be new backlogs in the new categories.

I did a calculation that if this bill (labelled as STEM, although it is not actually STEM) were to pass, people like us in backlogs will end up spending $4 billion to apply in new categories and then wait for 20 years in the new backlog. It will work great for immigration lawyers because they will earn a lot of money, but it will be a disaster for people like in the backlogs.

It seems Wadhwa doesn't know what he is talking. With his articles I get the impression that he doesn't have grasp of the issue. He will jump up and down on anything called STEM without even knowing if it will help or hurt STEM applicants like us.


Basically are your implying (w.r t backlogs in new STEM category), that are there more than 55000 STEM candidates that apply every year or the backlogs will be due to the procedural delay of category conversion?

greyhair
12-03-2012, 01:57 PM
it might not be be backlogged much .. it is like adding 55k visas to eb2 .. any way they need to change the caps , per country limits

Sorry, can't resist saying this, but you got to read more than the headlines.

The bigger sound bite may say 55K, but this number has to be divided with the family based in half, which leaves around 28k green cards. This 28k is divided equally between Eb-6 and EB-7, new categories created by this bill. EB-6 is for PHD and EB-7 is for Masters. EB-6 is like similar to EB-1, which is not even backlogged, so what good will EB-6 visas do for us? And unlike the current system in which unused numbers flow to the next category, as per the proposed bill the unused EB-6 numbers will not flow to EB-7. So in the end the real number is only 14k increase in visa numbers in EB-7. You may now say - ok so we have additional 14K visas, so whats wrong with that - right? Here is what is wrong:
They can give these numbers to existing backlogs if the intention is to give visas to STEM. Instead they are creating a new category even when thousands of STEM people like me are waiting in EB-2, and some in EB-3 as well. Just as someone waiting in EB-3 has to REAPPLY in EB-2, and complete the application all over again, each one of us will have to REAPPLY in EB-6/7, meaning more dough for the lawyers. Then you may say - well, if I get my green card without any delay then I/my employer do not mind paying - right? Again, if even half the number of applicants in EB-2 reapply, it will be 200,000 people (including spouses and children) applying in EB-7 (in STEM Masters category) meaning 200,000 * $15,000 lawyer + filing fee = $3 billion - which is fine - but then you have 14,0000 green cards and 200,000 people which creates a another new backlog of 14 years, which is less than the backlog in EB-2.

You want to know what I think about this whole thing and those calling this STEM - I think they are thugs and making a fool out of all of us.

sunny2007
12-03-2012, 04:30 PM
Sorry, can't resist saying this, but you got to read more than the headlines.

The bigger sound bite may say 55K, but this number has to be divided with the family based in half, which leaves around 28k green cards. This 28k is divided equally between Eb-6 and EB-7, new categories created by this bill. EB-6 is for PHD and EB-7 is for Masters. EB-6 is like similar to EB-1, which is not even backlogged, so what good will EB-6 visas do for us? And unlike the current system in which unused numbers flow to the next category, as per the proposed bill the unused EB-6 numbers will not flow to EB-7. So in the end the real number is only 14k increase in visa numbers in EB-7. You may now say - ok so we have additional 14K visas, so whats wrong with that - right? Here is what is wrong:
They can give these numbers to existing backlogs if the intention is to give visas to STEM. Instead they are creating a new category even when thousands of STEM people like me are waiting in EB-2, and some in EB-3 as well. Just as someone waiting in EB-3 has to REAPPLY in EB-2, and complete the application all over again, each one of us will have to REAPPLY in EB-6/7, meaning more dough for the lawyers. Then you may say - well, if I get my green card without any delay then I/my employer do not mind paying - right? Again, if even half the number of applicants in EB-2 reapply, it will be 200,000 people (including spouses and children) applying in EB-7 (in STEM Masters category) meaning 200,000 * $15,000 lawyer + filing fee = $3 billion - which is fine - but then you have 14,0000 green cards and 200,000 people which creates a another new backlog of 14 years, which is less than the backlog in EB-2.

You want to know what I think about this whole thing and those calling this STEM - I think they are thugs and making a fool out of all of us.

Looks like STEM guys don't like STEM....Let's take a break.

immigrant2007
12-03-2012, 06:30 PM
sorry, can't resist saying this, but you got to read more than the headlines.

The bigger sound bite may say 55k, but this number has to be divided with the family based in half, which leaves around 28k green cards. This 28k is divided equally between eb-6 and eb-7, new categories created by this bill. Eb-6 is for phd and eb-7 is for masters. Eb-6 is like similar to eb-1, which is not even backlogged, so what good will eb-6 visas do for us? And unlike the current system in which unused numbers flow to the next category, as per the proposed bill the unused eb-6 numbers will not flow to eb-7. So in the end the real number is only 14k increase in visa numbers in eb-7. You may now say - ok so we have additional 14k visas, so whats wrong with that - right? Here is what is wrong:
They can give these numbers to existing backlogs if the intention is to give visas to stem. Instead they are creating a new category even when thousands of stem people like me are waiting in eb-2, and some in eb-3 as well. Just as someone waiting in eb-3 has to reapply in eb-2, and complete the application all over again, each one of us will have to reapply in eb-6/7, meaning more dough for the lawyers. Then you may say - well, if i get my green card without any delay then i/my employer do not mind paying - right? Again, if even half the number of applicants in eb-2 reapply, it will be 200,000 people (including spouses and children) applying in eb-7 (in stem masters category) meaning 200,000 * $15,000 lawyer + filing fee = $3 billion - which is fine - but then you have 14,0000 green cards and 200,000 people which creates a another new backlog of 14 years, which is less than the backlog in eb-2.

You want to know what i think about this whole thing and those calling this stem - i think they are thugs and making a fool out of all of us.

200000?????

Rb_newsletter
12-03-2012, 06:43 PM
House debate on STEM will start at 9:30am this morning. Vote is scheduled at 11am. The bill is expected to pass in the House. It is unlikely that this bill will be taken up in the Senate.

Here is the link to C-span to watch STEM debate live -
Live Video - C-SPAN | C-SPAN (http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN/)

Hi Administrator2,
What is the message being conveyed by posting this? Does this means IV supports STEM bill?

sunny2007
12-03-2012, 10:42 PM
Hi Administrator2,
What is the message being conveyed by posting this? Does this means IV supports STEM bill? Message is that the bill is junk and will be trashed into dustbin.

A New stem bill will be in CIR and CIR will be taken up in 2017 and finally approved in 2021.

immigrant2007
12-04-2012, 06:36 AM
Message is that the bill is junk and will be trashed into dustbin.

A New stem bill will be in CIR and CIR will be taken up in 2017 and finally approved in 2021.

what is the message sent by CIR? Is it ok to be illegal in this country for 10 years and then be considered for legality. HOw about law abiding non immigrants? what are the incentives for them?Will they be compensated for the systematic delay in GC processing?

ronhira
12-04-2012, 07:25 AM
what is the message sent by CIR? Is it ok to be illegal in this country for 10 years and then be considered for legality. HOw about law abiding non immigrants? what are the incentives for them?Will they be compensated for the systematic delay in GC processing?

good debate.... like it....

you seem to talk as if america owes u something & what is urs is now being given to someone who u think is less deserving.... interesting!

what incentives/compensation do u want? no body promised u any date within which u were to suppose to get u'r gc & u always have the option to leave if u think this is unjust.....

every country has the right to let people that are best for that country.... US has that right too..... what makes u think that u or anyone else is any better than "illegal"?

the tone and outburst against undocumented is the sound of uneducated youth or frustration at best.... tamper your sense of entitlement and stop looking down upon undocumented..... its unhealthy for this debate

undocumented has much tougher circumstances than us..... there is a lot of crime in the shadows committed on the undocumented & it goes unreported..... its a human tragedy..... what r u crying for? for not able to take 1 more vacation to vegas?

if u show apathy towards others, it will come right back at you many folds.... so be sensitive towards the serious issues affecting others..... u r not truman & the world is not hatching a grand conspiracy around u.... have fun

immigrant2007
12-04-2012, 08:38 AM
good debate.... like it....

you seem to talk as if america owes u something & what is urs is now being given to someone who u think is less deserving.... interesting!

what incentives/compensation do u want? no body promised u any date within which u were to suppose to get u'r gc & u always have the option to leave if u think this is unjust.....

every country has the right to let people that are best for that country.... US has that right too..... what makes u think that u or anyone else is any better than "illegal"?

the tone and outburst against undocumented is the sound of uneducated youth or frustration at best.... tamper your sense of entitlement and stop looking down upon undocumented..... its unhealthy for this debate

undocumented has much tougher circumstances than us..... there is a lot of crime in the shadows committed on the undocumented & it goes unreported..... its a human tragedy..... what r u crying for? for not able to take 1 more vacation to vegas?

if u show apathy towards others, it will come right back at you many folds.... so be sensitive towards the serious issues affecting others..... u r not truman & the world is not hatching a grand conspiracy around u.... have fun

I don't blame you for judging me and my intentions based on my comments and painting them anti apathy. That's the best you can do. I don't need to defend myself or my viewpoint as you are free to express your opinion so relax and think what I am trying to ask or say? My question will still remain that is it ok to break law in US and then be pardoned by redefining the law what is the purpose of making laws in that case? US doesn't owe me anything but the immigration department owes us all non immigrants transparency in their process (basic information how many GCs were awarded in each category to each country in last 15 years and how were those GC application made, EB , family or 245i). How can they approve labor of people from PERM process in 2005 when there were people from old process still waiting (Its like making a new line and telling the people in old line to stand at the back of the new line). Don't paint my question as anti people. Start help line for helping undocumented I will match your efforts. My question if about effectiveness and fairness of immigration process.

bikram_das_in
12-04-2012, 08:41 AM
good debate.... like it....

you seem to talk as if america owes u something & what is urs is now being given to someone who u think is less deserving.... interesting!

what incentives/compensation do u want? no body promised u any date within which u were to suppose to get u'r gc & u always have the option to leave if u think this is unjust.....

every country has the right to let people that are best for that country.... US has that right too..... what makes u think that u or anyone else is any better than "illegal"?

the tone and outburst against undocumented is the sound of uneducated youth or frustration at best.... tamper your sense of entitlement and stop looking down upon undocumented..... its unhealthy for this debate

undocumented has much tougher circumstances than us..... there is a lot of crime in the shadows committed on the undocumented & it goes unreported..... its a human tragedy..... what r u crying for? for not able to take 1 more vacation to vegas?

if u show apathy towards others, it will come right back at you many folds.... so be sensitive towards the serious issues affecting others..... u r not truman & the world is not hatching a grand conspiracy around u.... have fun

For once, I can agree with Ronhira's critical view. The fact remains that both undocumented and documented workers' issues are humanitarian in nature. While undocumented workers are more vulnerable to exploitation and crime, documented workers suffer from lack of rights to themselves and their families and left to the mercy of employers. Both issues should be given attention by lawmakers, I don't think either one have any merit over the other. Being part of one group, advocating for it, is not bad. We should be fighting for our cause not against anybody ( read undocumented workers).

immigrant2007
12-04-2012, 09:09 AM
For once, I can agree with Ronhira's critical view. The fact remains that both undocumented and documented workers' issues are humanitarian in nature. While undocumented workers are more vulnerable to exploitation and crime, documented workers suffer from lack of rights to themselves and their families and left to the mercy of employers. Both issues should be given attention by lawmakers, I don't think either one have any merit over the other. Being part of one group, advocating for it, is not bad. We should be fighting for our cause not against anybody ( read undocumented workers).

Basically the message given is there is no point of debate on right and wrong as it suits us we support it

Cheran
12-04-2012, 09:32 AM
good debate.... like it....

you seem to talk as if america owes u something & what is urs is now being given to someone who u think is less deserving.... interesting!

what incentives/compensation do u want? no body promised u any date within which u were to suppose to get u'r gc & u always have the option to leave if u think this is unjust.....

every country has the right to let people that are best for that country.... US has that right too..... what makes u think that u or anyone else is any better than "illegal"?

the tone and outburst against undocumented is the sound of uneducated youth or frustration at best.... tamper your sense of entitlement and stop looking down upon undocumented..... its unhealthy for this debate

undocumented has much tougher circumstances than us..... there is a lot of crime in the shadows committed on the undocumented & it goes unreported..... its a human tragedy..... what r u crying for? for not able to take 1 more vacation to vegas?

if u show apathy towards others, it will come right back at you many folds.... so be sensitive towards the serious issues affecting others..... u r not truman & the world is not hatching a grand conspiracy around u.... have fun

I don't agree with your argument. While a country has its right to bring in who they want and when they want, how they treat them once you are in is a different story. Why is my Greencard tied to a company and not to my contribution? For the past 15 years I have been held captive with a promise that I might get a greencard, even for a convict the law states that the judgment should be swift and fair, what am I getting out of this? For me this is modern day slavery. I have been held captive both by immigration process and the lawyers who exploited it over the past 15 years.
I understand that you are trying to make a statement to be fair to be undocumented workers, I understand that but there is a remarkable difference between the two. One has violated the law of the land they live and the other has not. While I am sympathetic towards them, to review them under the same radar is not right.
Finally, US is run by smart people or people who think they are smart. I understand that they don't need people who categorize themselves under EB3 and now EB2. So the smarty pants are trying to exploit the system and say if you want to stay pay all these new fees and keep your status in limbo or get the heck out of the country. Which I don't agree with.
Anyhow, had couple minutes so this rants. All with good intention nothing else.....

sanju_dba
12-04-2012, 10:15 AM
I don't blame you for judging me and my intentions based on my comments and painting them anti apathy. That's the best you can do. I don't need to defend myself or my viewpoint as you are free to express your opinion so relax and think what I am trying to ask or say? My question will still remain that is it ok to break law in US and then be pardoned by redefining the law what is the purpose of making laws in that case? US doesn't owe me anything but the immigration department owes us all non immigrants transparency in their process (basic information how many GCs were awarded in each category to each country in last 15 years and how were those GC application made, EB , family or 245i). How can they approve labor of people from PERM process in 2005 when there were people from old process still waiting (Its like making a new line and telling the people in old line to stand at the back of the new line). Don't paint my question as anti people. Start help line for helping undocumented I will match your efforts. My question if about effectiveness and fairness of immigration process.

I second that!

in8thfloor
12-04-2012, 10:26 AM
good debate.... like it....

you seem to talk as if america owes u something & what is urs is now being given to someone who u think is less deserving.... interesting!

what incentives/compensation do u want? no body promised u any date within which u were to suppose to get u'r gc & u always have the option to leave if u think this is unjust.....

every country has the right to let people that are best for that country.... US has that right too..... what makes u think that u or anyone else is any better than "illegal"?

the tone and outburst against undocumented is the sound of uneducated youth or frustration at best.... tamper your sense of entitlement and stop looking down upon undocumented..... its unhealthy for this debate

undocumented has much tougher circumstances than us..... there is a lot of crime in the shadows committed on the undocumented & it goes unreported..... its a human tragedy..... what r u crying for? for not able to take 1 more vacation to vegas?

if u show apathy towards others, it will come right back at you many folds.... so be sensitive towards the serious issues affecting others..... u r not truman & the world is not hatching a grand conspiracy around u.... have fun

I would have agreed with you if the State (in which I have been for the last 7 years) wouldn't have collected State tax. And, if they did, what’s wrong in expecting equal right to access State resources. For example, my colleague’s son, who got admission in to University of Michigan, had to compromise and had to admit his son in to Michigan State University (which was obviously his second choice), as UoM wouldn’t qualify him as Michigan resident (in spite of paying taxes here for last 8 years). Neither UoM nor MSU consider H1B visa holders as in-state (in spite of paying state taxes for zillion number of years) if you don’t have a GC or citizenship. The fee for International students at MSU is lower compared to UoM.

American are good at preaching –“responsibilities come along with rights”. Well, they think we (Legal immigrants) have no right but should share responsibility.

ronhira
12-04-2012, 10:34 AM
.....

American are good at preaching –“responsibilities come along with rights”. Well, they think we (Legal immigrants) have no right but should share responsibility.

nothing is perfect..... which is why we are here talking about the system.... but just coz its not perfect doesn't mean its trash....

if u think what u described is unjust then u need to speak up to change the system.... & not expect someone else to change the system for u..... & painting all Americans with the same brush coz is definitely not going to work.... when u r asking for fairness (which is what u'r trying) u've to present merit of u'r arguments & reason, u cannot shame anyone into being fair to u.... just a thought....

ronhira
12-04-2012, 10:40 AM
u know what i see.... many people being frustrated with things going on in their lives, & turning to complaining & blaming others for things not working out exactly the way u intended..... someone are blaming undocumented & others are blaming Americans & if someone would ask - so what did u do to change things around - immediately a few will blame obama or republicans.... don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to pull anyone down..... merely describing what i see around here....

immigrant2007
12-04-2012, 10:44 AM
nothing is perfect..... which is why we are here talking about the system.... but just coz its not perfect doesn't mean its trash....

if u think what u described is unjust then u need to speak up to change the system.... & not expect someone else to change the system for u..... & painting all Americans with the same brush coz is definitely not going to work.... when u r asking for fairness (which is what u'r trying) u've to present merit of u'r arguments & reason, u cannot shame anyone into being fair to u.... just a thought....

You have few a logical points here as:
"if u think what u described is unjust then u need to speak up to change the system.... & not expect someone else to change the system for u"
In the lawmaking system ") u've to present merit of u'r arguments & reason".

Rest, I think are "fair bit of assumption based conclusions".

immigrant2007
12-04-2012, 10:51 AM
u know what i see.... many people being frustrated with things going on in their lives, & turning to complaining & blaming others for things not working out exactly the way u intended..... someone are blaming undocumented & others are blaming Americans & if someone would ask - so what did u do to change things around - immediately a few will blame obama or republicans.... don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to pull anyone down..... merely describing what i see around here....

hmmmm......well people might be frustrated or may be people just talking and putting out their points....but you got a valid point again "so what did u do to change things around "?This talk might not be of any help for us (most likely) unless.....

bpratap
12-04-2012, 11:05 AM
Best way to oppose or prevent anything from happening is to say, I am working on it, that anybody else will work on it to make it happen.

baangdus
12-05-2012, 08:21 AM
good debate.... like it....

you seem to talk as if america owes u something & what is urs is now being given to someone who u think is less deserving.... interesting!

what incentives/compensation do u want? no body promised u any date within which u were to suppose to get u'r gc & u always have the option to leave if u think this is unjust.....

every country has the right to let people that are best for that country.... US has that right too..... what makes u think that u or anyone else is any better than "illegal"?

the tone and outburst against undocumented is the sound of uneducated youth or frustration at best.... tamper your sense of entitlement and stop looking down upon undocumented..... its unhealthy for this debate

undocumented has much tougher circumstances than us..... there is a lot of crime in the shadows committed on the undocumented & it goes unreported..... its a human tragedy..... what r u crying for? for not able to take 1 more vacation to vegas?

if u show apathy towards others, it will come right back at you many folds.... so be sensitive towards the serious issues affecting others..... u r not truman & the world is not hatching a grand conspiracy around u.... have fun
Point you trying to make is valid and accepted, reasoning you provide is senseless. Prefering illegal immigrant over legal immigrant is wrong on many ethical and moral grounds and people are simply frustrated by this fact. I doubt if anyone has any personal grudges againt any illegal immigrant.

go_guy123
12-05-2012, 09:09 AM
Point you trying to make is valid and accepted, reasoning you provide is senseless. Prefering illegal immigrant over legal immigrant is wrong on many ethical and moral grounds and people are simply frustrated by this fact. I doubt if anyone has any personal grudges againt any illegal immigrant.

H1b are political orphans, there are no votes to be made there. So the issue will always be there. Also nobody guaranteed GC to H1B. These rules were unfair from the day one itself.
One can choose to accept it or leave US. If you are single, you can marry a USC and solve all these problems.

pd052011
12-05-2012, 09:22 AM
My apologies for being one of the pessimists here. In my view, we all (EB2, EB3 etc) consciously got into an agreement with our employers and with that we agreed to get in line. It is up to the rule makers to address rule breakers.

dhakaldoo
12-05-2012, 10:28 AM
H1b are political orphans, there are no votes to be made there. So the issue will always be there. Also nobody guaranteed GC to H1B. These rules were unfair from the day one itself.
One can choose to accept it or leave US. If you are single, you can marry a USC and solve all these problems.


Its completely right that the Rules were unfair from the beginning does not mean we have to not fight them.
The moment you are allowed enter this country legally and pay taxes and work here, you become entitled to a fair treatment.

But here you are suggesting that we have only two options .. 1. either leave country 2. Suck it up.

When in fact, in this country you actually can fight for what is right, even the DREAMERS can, why the hell cant we?
Let me ask you with this logic, where would the children of illegals go if they are told to leave? they dont have homes in other countries..

I have discussed this issue with our local lawmaker's offices several times last year and also during advocacy days in DC. in past They don't say suck it up or leave country! They do understand the kind of troubles immigrants go through. They do encourage you to fight for improvements even though right now we are not a vote bank. They still view us as constituents.

Its the fundamental right of a human being to fight for what is right. Not letting employers exploit you etc. and somebody is willing to fight nobody can tell them "Suck it up or Leave the country" at least not in the US!

Should Mahatma Gandhi not have protested for unfair and racist treatment towards people of color in SouthAfrica? should he have just sucked it up or left the country? He knew better than that as he was a barrister, He knew that its completely legal to fight and protest!!

You must have read about case of the Indian lady who lost her life due to out-dated and outrageous rules against abortion in Irland. Her husband is fighting for changing the rules there to save other innocent lives, and many Irish lawmakers are supporting his efforts. Should we tell him to suck it up or leave the country since he is an immigrant??

If you dont want to help out in the cause dont do it, but dont try to discourage some people who are fighting please!

dhakaldoo
12-05-2012, 10:37 AM
My apologies for being one of the pessimists here. In my view, we all (EB2, EB3 etc) consciously got into an agreement with our employers and with that we agreed to get in line. It is up to the rule makers to address rule breakers.

Yes we agreed to get in line, were you told how many years you will have to wait?
If I am building a house for you will you accept me as a builder if I give you indefinite timeline?

and without us making the lawmakers aware of the reality and the real issues we are facing, how the are they supposed to make fair rules? For a huge country like US , even the bills that are most logical, not related to immigration, which affect the current citizens require considerable lobbying effort to be able to reach law makers.

Do you think without immigrants voicing their issues, the law makers will even know what wait times we face ? Will they be able to know that on EAD it takes 3 moths to get Advance Parole document. If you have a medical emergency in India and you are needed the next day by side of your parents, you wont be able to go due do the fact that documents take 3 months. Do you think any wise and Human person would say "SO what" to this situation?
A lot of law maker's offices don't even know that there is EB2 and EB3 let alone the law maker himself.
A lot of them don't even know that there is a thing called "visa vBulletin" which we die for every week.

So even if its up-to them to make or break the rule, it is solely our responsibility to reach out to them and voice our problems.

pd052011
12-05-2012, 10:44 AM
Its completely right that the Rules were unfair from the beginning does not mean we have to not fight them.
The moment you are allowed enter this country legally and pay taxes and work here, you become entitled to a fair treatment.

But here you are suggesting that we have only two options .. 1. either leave country 2. Suck it up.

When in fact, in this country you actually can fight for what is right, even the DREAMERS can, why the hell cant we?
Let me ask you with this logic, where would the children of illegals go if they are told to leave? they dont have homes in other countries..

I have discussed this issue with our local lawmaker's offices several times last year and also during advocacy days in DC. in past They don't say suck it up or leave country! They do understand the kind of troubles immigrants go through. They do encourage you to fight for improvements even though right now we are not a vote bank. They still view us as constituents.

Its the fundamental right of a human being to fight for what is right. Not letting employers exploit you etc. and somebody is willing to fight nobody can tell them "Suck it up or Leave the country" at least not in the US!

Should Mahatma Gandhi not have protested for unfair and racist treatment towards people of color in SouthAfrica? should he have just sucked it up or left the country? He knew better than that as he was a barrister, He knew that its completely legal to fight and protest!!

You must have read about case of the Indian lady who lost her life due to out-dated and outrageous rules against abortion in Irland. Her husband is fighting for changing the rules there to save other innocent lives, and many Irish lawmakers are supporting his efforts. Should we tell him to suck it up or leave the country since he is an immigrant??

If you dont want to help out in the cause dont do it, but dont try to discourage some people who are fighting please!

And we do that through IV. However, even after repeated efforts, if our voices aren't being heard, what does it convey?

hx82
12-05-2012, 10:51 AM
And we do that through IV. However, even after repeated efforts, if our voices aren't being heard, what does it convey?

To me only thing it conveys it, we need to speak LOUDER. These are grass root effort, every single one of us have to chip in and do our part.

dhakaldoo
12-05-2012, 12:24 PM
And we do that through IV. However, even after repeated efforts, if our voices aren't being heard, what does it convey?

How many years do you think IV is working? It was only founded in 2006-07. It got publicity only in past year because to 3012. So when you say repeated efforts its only been 2-3 yrs of real lobbying for 3012

Did you know that there is an agricultural lobbyist group which has been lobbing for one bill for past 10 years in interest of the farmers who are citizens and will be greatly affected by this bill?

What makes you think that we have done enough "repeated" efforts? Look at the Dreamers. they lobbied there day and night. not just the people who are affected but also other people from their community.

Here I tell my green card holder Indian acquaintances ( yes I dont like to call them my friends) to support the cause they look at me like I am Amway Agent muttering under their breath that we don't need any more Indians here!

I did a letter signature campaign to show support to this bill, I got more signatures from my american colleagues than my Indian colleges who are green card holders or are waiting for green cards. One 2nd generation immigrant Indian even told me that there are too many Indians here! He forgot that his parents were also immigrants and at that time too there were too many Indians here where, another Nepali second generation immigrant girl read the letter and signed it immediately cuz she said she believes in doing whats right!!!

We have a loooooong way to go buddy. Our battle is not only fighting the unjust system,, its our own people we have to fight the most! God only help us changing mind sets of our own clan!

dhakaldoo
12-05-2012, 12:27 PM
To me only thing it conveys it, we need to speak LOUDER. These are grass root effort, every single one of us have to chip in and do our part.

Thats the Spirit!!! :)

pappu
12-05-2012, 12:31 PM
Very well said dhakaldoo
With more people like yourself as members we will definitely succeed.

pd052011
12-05-2012, 12:36 PM
How many years do you think IV is working? It was only founded in 2006-07. It got publicity only in past year because to 3012. So when you say repeated efforts its only been 2-3 yrs of real lobbying for 3012

Did you know that there is an agricultural lobbyist group which has been lobbing for one bill for past 10 years in interest of the farmers who are citizens and will be greatly affected by this bill?

What makes you think that we have done enough "repeated" efforts? Look at the Dreamers. they lobbied there day and night. not just the people who are affected but also other people from their community.

Here I tell my green card holder Indian acquaintances ( yes I dont like to call them my friends) to support the cause they look at me like I am Amway Agent muttering under their breath that we don't need any more Indians here!

I did a letter signature campaign to show support to this bill, I got more signatures from my american colleagues than my Indian colleges who are green card holders or are waiting for green cards. One 2nd generation immigrant Indian even told me that there are too many Indians here! He forgot that his parents were also immigrants and at that time too there were too many Indians here where, another Nepali second generation immigrant girl read the letter and signed it immediately cuz she said she believes in doing whats right!!!

We have a loooooong way to go buddy. Our battle is not only fighting the unjust system,, its our own people we have to fight the most! God only help us changing mind sets of our own clan!

I agree on the lobbying part. Thats why many of us support IV. Its not just for my application. Its to find a just model for every legal immigrant.

sunny2007
12-05-2012, 12:52 PM
Stem bills debate in Senate ( eventually went to dustbin )

Watch from 2.41

Senate Session - C-SPAN Video Library (http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/SenateSession5050)

sanju_dba
12-05-2012, 01:27 PM
H1b are political orphans, there are no votes to be made there. So the issue will always be there. Also nobody guaranteed GC to H1B. These rules were unfair from the day one itself.
One can choose to accept it or leave US. If you are single, you can marry a USC and solve all these problems.

Well, its the other way round, H1B ( dual intent visa ) has a guaranteed path to GC. Choose to accept or leave is not that easily done. Put up a board saying GC will take 10years or we donot know when you will get it , then watch how discouraging it will be for H1B aspirants. We plan based on the time it takes to LC->GC journey. it was 4-5 years in 2002 which was doable. Now its over 15years, Not doable. Law makers say "is it?" and they wont say "Go and marry a USC".

justice4all
12-05-2012, 01:41 PM
I second that!

I second that too!!

justice4all
12-05-2012, 01:43 PM
I don't blame you for judging me and my intentions based on my comments and painting them anti apathy. That's the best you can do. I don't need to defend myself or my viewpoint as you are free to express your opinion so relax and think what I am trying to ask or say? My question will still remain that is it ok to break law in US and then be pardoned by redefining the law what is the purpose of making laws in that case? US doesn't owe me anything but the immigration department owes us all non immigrants transparency in their process (basic information how many GCs were awarded in each category to each country in last 15 years and how were those GC application made, EB , family or 245i). How can they approve labor of people from PERM process in 2005 when there were people from old process still waiting (Its like making a new line and telling the people in old line to stand at the back of the new line). Don't paint my question as anti people. Start help line for helping undocumented I will match your efforts. My question if about effectiveness and fairness of immigration process.

I second that too!! (Sorry avoid my previous post)

madhu345
12-05-2012, 02:11 PM
How many years do you think IV is working? It was only founded in 2006-07. It got publicity only in past year because to 3012. So when you say repeated efforts its only been 2-3 yrs of real lobbying for 3012

Did you know that there is an agricultural lobbyist group which has been lobbing for one bill for past 10 years in interest of the farmers who are citizens and will be greatly affected by this bill?

What makes you think that we have done enough "repeated" efforts? Look at the Dreamers. they lobbied there day and night. not just the people who are affected but also other people from their community.

Here I tell my green card holder Indian acquaintances ( yes I dont like to call them my friends) to support the cause they look at me like I am Amway Agent muttering under their breath that we don't need any more Indians here!

I did a letter signature campaign to show support to this bill, I got more signatures from my american colleagues than my Indian colleges who are green card holders or are waiting for green cards. One 2nd generation immigrant Indian even told me that there are too many Indians here! He forgot that his parents were also immigrants and at that time too there were too many Indians here where, another Nepali second generation immigrant girl read the letter and signed it immediately cuz she said she believes in doing whats right!!!

We have a loooooong way to go buddy. Our battle is not only fighting the unjust system,, its our own people we have to fight the most! God only help us changing mind sets of our own clan!

Well said dhakaldoo,

Agree we are unable to convince our own people, how do we expect others going to help without pursuing.

np5337
12-05-2012, 02:35 PM
To me only thing it conveys it, we need to speak LOUDER. These are grass root effort, every single one of us have to chip in and do our part.

I agree with hx82. Everyone has to be on same page,can not fight with each other and blame each other. People take advantage of that. We went through that in our country 60+ years ago. So let's just focus on H.R. 3012 only. GO IV.

pd052011
12-05-2012, 02:38 PM
I agree with hx82. Everyone has to be on same page,can not fight with each other and blame each other. People take advantage of that. We went through that in our country 60+ years ago. So let's just focus on H.R. 3012 only. GO IV.

As long as it answers the "Whats in it for me?" question, we will get a lot of supporters.

go_guy123
12-05-2012, 02:48 PM
Its completely right that the Rules were unfair from the beginning does not mean we have to not fight them.
The moment you are allowed enter this country legally and pay taxes and work here, you become entitled to a fair treatment.

But here you are suggesting that we have only two options .. 1. either leave country 2. Suck it up.

When in fact, in this country you actually can fight for what is right, even the DREAMERS can, why the hell cant we?
Let me ask you with this logic, where would the children of illegals go if they are told to leave? they dont have homes in other countries..

I have discussed this issue with our local lawmaker's offices several times last year and also during advocacy days in DC. in past They don't say suck it up or leave country! They do understand the kind of troubles immigrants go through. They do encourage you to fight for improvements even though right now we are not a vote bank. They still view us as constituents.

Its the fundamental right of a human being to fight for what is right. Not letting employers exploit you etc. and somebody is willing to fight nobody can tell them "Suck it up or Leave the country" at least not in the US!

Should Mahatma Gandhi not have protested for unfair and racist treatment towards people of color in SouthAfrica? should he have just sucked it up or left the country? He knew better than that as he was a barrister, He knew that its completely legal to fight and protest!!

You must have read about case of the Indian lady who lost her life due to out-dated and outrageous rules against abortion in Irland. Her husband is fighting for changing the rules there to save other innocent lives, and many Irish lawmakers are supporting his efforts. Should we tell him to suck it up or leave the country since he is an immigrant??

If you dont want to help out in the cause dont do it, but dont try to discourage some people who are fighting please!

How do we decide what is fair. Dreamers can fight because they have a huge vote bank behind. Because of the that increasing vote bank pretty, the GOP got their ***es handed out to them in this election cycle and they are in a state of shock.

In fact in states like california, Dreamers get reduced tuition that even US Citizen from other states dont get...Is that fair? That too in a state with runaway deficits.

Irish women wanted the right to choose from long time and current rule doesnt allow that. And this served as a flash point and liberal cause rallied for it.
So in this case Halappanavar was "in side" with the vote bank like the Dreamers here.


Now coming to Should Mahatma Gandhi...lets not even compare to that situiation. He was giving up his professional career for bettermen of cause. It was about non cooperation.
In this case non-cooperation would be refusing to continue on H1B/I485/EAD etc like this.
Had people being doing the same non-cooperation over this "unjust" system and refused to put up with it and not work under H1B. I guarantee you as supply goes down, the billing rate would rise and the industry which is currently doing lip service (because they get away with this bracero style H1B guest worker program) would pay attention and lobby and reform the system. Have you ever noticed the industry only wails that H1B quota is over and never complains about the EB backlog. It work wonderful over the past 10+years Now that Obama has tightened H1B, they are having their clocks cleaned and are now complaining about it.

dhakaldoo
12-05-2012, 03:09 PM
How do we decide what is fair. Dreamers can fight because they have a huge vote bank behind. Because of the that increasing vote bank pretty, the GOP got their ***es handed out to them in this election cycle and they are in a state of shock.

In fact in states like california, Dreamers get reduced tuition that even US Citizen from other states dont get...Is that fair? That too in a state with runaway deficits.

Irish women wanted the right to choose from long time and current rule doesnt allow that. And this served as a flash point and liberal cause rallied for it.
So in this case Halappanavar was "in side" with the vote bank like the Dreamers here.


Now coming to Should Mahatma Gandhi...lets not even compare to that situiation. He was giving up his professional career for bettermen of cause. It was about non cooperation.
In this case non-cooperation would be refusing to continue on H1B/I485/EAD etc like this.
Had people being doing the same non-cooperation over this "unjust" system and refused to put up with it and not work under H1B. I guarantee you as supply goes down, the billing rate would rise and the industry which is currently doing lip service (because they get away with this bracero style H1B guest worker program) would pay attention and lobby and reform the system. Have you ever noticed the industry only wails that H1B quota is over and never complains about the EB backlog. It work wonderful over the past 10+years Now that Obama has tightened H1B, they are having their clocks cleaned and are now complaining about it.

Dreamers is a vote bank : Agreed., Dreamers problems bigger than un : Agreed. So what? does not mean that people who are not considered as vote banks dont have a right to voice their problems. Its like telling kids under 18 - shut up cuz you dont have voting rights.

UN-Fair is where you are allowed to enter the country without any quota on a dual intent visa (H1B) where there is no country CAP. It is a fact that you can apply for GC on H1B.
But suddenly when you do apply they tell you oh no, your country cant get more than 7% of total EB category. That's unfair especially when you work based on talents. But i think there has been enough discussion on why 3012 is fair.

As far as voting bank is concerned, huge tech companies are lobbying for this bill supporting this bill. All the house and senate members agree that immigration system is broken. 3012 passed in house with just 10 votes against, what more evidence do you want that even law makers want to fix this?

and finally, i wasn't talking about Non cooperation. I was talking about his protests in South Africa before he gave up his job to become leader in India. Do not confuse this with India's freedom Struggle. (this is why I usually avoid to give this example)


And also there is a better way of doing things than non cooperation because every body wants a better life for the family. In this country you can get a better life if you work hard , at least that's what they say than just leaving the country and going back home or yeah, as you suggested marry a USC, like that's easy!

Fortunately we have a platform through which we can fight for rights and that's why I support them. You seem to think the other way though per your previous post and that's one of the major tasks we as IV members face in future. Change mind set.

PS Pappu : Thanks! kind of in a mood of relieving you today :D

go_guy123
12-05-2012, 08:00 PM
Dreamers is a vote bank : Agreed., Dreamers problems bigger than un : Agreed. So what? does not mean that people who are not considered as vote banks dont have a right to voice their problems. Its like telling kids under 18 - shut up cuz you dont have voting rights.

UN-Fair is where you are allowed to enter the country without any quota on a dual intent visa (H1B) where there is no country CAP. It is a fact that you can apply for GC on H1B.
But suddenly when you do apply they tell you oh no, your country cant get more than 7% of total EB category. That's unfair especially when you work based on talents. But i think there has been enough discussion on why 3012 is fair.

As far as voting bank is concerned, huge tech companies are lobbying for this bill supporting this bill. All the house and senate members agree that immigration system is broken. 3012 passed in house with just 10 votes against, what more evidence do you want that even law makers want to fix this?

and finally, i wasn't talking about Non cooperation. I was talking about his protests in South Africa before he gave up his job to become leader in India. Do not confuse this with India's freedom Struggle. (this is why I usually avoid to give this example)


And also there is a better way of doing things than non cooperation because every body wants a better life for the family. In this country you can get a better life if you work hard , at least that's what they say than just leaving the country and going back home or yeah, as you suggested marry a USC, like that's easy!

Fortunately we have a platform through which we can fight for rights and that's why I support them. You seem to think the other way though per your previous post and that's one of the major tasks we as IV members face in future. Change mind set.

PS Pappu : Thanks! kind of in a mood of relieving you today :D


Good post. Very good that you are doing advocacy. This would be useful in case the stars are aligned that some sort of SKIL bill or HR3012 equivant gets passed. Then your points
would be heard. However in the near future I just cant see it happen.
This is the classic prisoner's dilema problem in Game theory.

Unless both the house and senate are under GOP, I just cant see an relief. However I wish I am wrong and people get some relief and reward for their work.