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neocor
01-09-2006, 02:33 PM
I just got to this site via from immigration portal.
I have been reading a lot in the other forum and here about the ways to cure retrogression. Lobbying for more Visa's and other things that were part of the S.1932 bill are fine, however these things are not going to solve the retrogression problem even if such a bill gets passed.

No one seems to be talking about the real problem that is Labor Substitution. Abolishing Labor Substitution will itself take care of every retrogression problem.

The INS does not have the right tools to police the misue of this rule. This is resutling in a lot of problems for even those employees whose Labor's get substituted even if they are still working in the same company.

Any effort to reform immigration should start with first reforming the Labor Substitution rule (if not completely abolish).
I know that all the companies/employers and the lawyers community are against removing the Labor substitution, therefore it will never be removed, but atleast it should be reformed so that it can be better policed so that no one is able to misuse it and play with peoples lives. And in turn add to retregression.

Following reforms are needed in Labor Substitution.

- First thing in the Labor Substitution reform is related to the Priority date. The Priority Date for a substituted Labor should the date when the Labor is substituted (or the I-140 filing date). It should not be be the date when the Labor was originally filed. This in itself will solve 90% of the problems related to retrogression.

- When a Labor is substituted it should be verified immediately to find if there is any I-140 or I-485 that is pending based on this Labor. If so then the Labor should be rejected immediately. Currently this is not done at the time the Labor is substituted, therefore the resulting 485 filing just amounts to add up into the backlog of Visa Number requirement, until the priority date becomes current for this 485.

- If an employee invokes the AC21 then that Labor should not be allowed to be substituted.

- There should be a limit to the time until which a Labor can be substituted. This could be debatable and could have other consequences, as the INS could invalidate any GC application that is been pending for more than the this duration.

In short the Labour substitution rule is in a mess and is getting miused a lot. People are getting fooled by the employers, and ultimately its making the retrogression more worse.

neocor

mchundi
01-09-2006, 03:11 PM
I just got to this site via from immigration portal.
I have been reading a lot in the other forum and here about the ways to cure retrogression. Lobbying for more Visa's and other things that were part of the S.1932 bill are fine, however these things are not going to solve the retrogression problem even if such a bill gets passed.

No one seems to be talking about the real problem that is Labor Substitution. Abolishing Labor Substitution will itself take care of every retrogression problem.

The INS does not have the right tools to police the misue of this rule. This is resutling in a lot of problems for even those employees whose Labor's get substituted even if they are still working in the same company.

Any effort to reform immigration should start with first reforming the Labor Substitution rule (if not completely abolish).
I know that all the companies/employers and the lawyers community are against removing the Labor substitution, therefore it will never be removed, but atleast it should be reformed so that it can be better policed so that no one is able to misuse it and play with peoples lives. And in turn add to retregression.

Following reforms are needed in Labor Substitution.

- First thing in the Labor Substitution reform is related to the Priority date. The Priority Date for a substituted Labor should the date when the Labor is substituted (or the I-140 filing date). It should not be be the date when the Labor was originally filed. This in itself will solve 90% of the problems related to retrogression.

- When a Labor is substituted it should be verified immediately to find if there is any I-140 or I-485 that is pending based on this Labor. If so then the Labor should be rejected immediately. Currently this is not done at the time the Labor is substituted, therefore the resulting 485 filing just amounts to add up into the backlog of Visa Number requirement, until the priority date becomes current for this 485.

- If an employee invokes the AC21 then that Labor should not be allowed to be substituted.

- There should be a limit to the time until which a Labor can be substituted. This could be debatable and could have other consequences, as the INS could invalidate any GC application that is been pending for more than the this duration.

In short the Labour substitution rule is in a mess and is getting miused a lot. People are getting fooled by the employers, and ultimately its making the retrogression more worse.

neocor
Probably true,
I think the DOL/USCIS(I dont know who) is moving in this direction.
The real problem is the 7% limit per country and the time it takes for one to go thru the 3 steps.
There r several people who have started G.C process several times for different reasons. This slows them (DOL/USCIS) down and remember this is like a chain reaction until u stop applying for a G.C or AC21 kicks in.
Bill Clinton signed some immigration relief for the illegal immigrants just before he left without allocating any resources to process them. Close to 300,000 illegal immigrants filed their labor before Apr 2001. This brought the DOL to a halt and it couldnot recover for 2 years. Finally the BEC's were created to resolve the mess created by the new law. They did not sove the problem but addressed it to some extent. For some it became worse.
In the meantime several VISA numbers went unused because the DOL probably scrutinized the cases more thoroughly and probably there were more rejections by USCIS
The reason why so many people look for loop holes is because of the inordinate delay in the process.
I guess the situation will only become worse unless those who got their labor get to apply for 485 and get portability thru AC21 or dropout altogether.
The problem with labor is partly addressed thru PERM. Over the next couple of years the BEC's eliminate the backlog and soon everybody will be in the hunt for the VISA numbers.
The best that can be done now is the fight for more VISA numbers and be able to file for I485 whether a VISA number is available or not or anything that addresses this like
1: increase the overall VISA numbers (McGain && Kennedy)
2: capture unused VISA numbers
3: Cap not being applicable for those with Masters degree in ---- && 3+ years exp before starting the G.C process (Sen. Chuk hagel)
4: Being able to file I-485 even with no VISA number(failed S-1932)
--MC

sats123
01-10-2006, 11:04 PM
Fu&^*& desi companies are still advertising for pre approved labor, here is what I got from a desi company. Looks like this labor is cleared from Backlog, they take advantage of this and make money. Its fu$%%$ jackpot for these kind of companies.

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Rishi
01-11-2006, 11:45 AM
Friends,

Don't waste your time on this. The American employers will never agree to this as LC belongs to them and they don't want to waste time, money and effort again and again. The only problem I see is our desi consulting companies misusing this privilege.

I would say lets not waste our time as DOL/USCIS is trying to formulate ways to check 'LC Substitution Fraud'. At the same time they don't want to penalize the legitimate substitutions where an employee is already working for the same company for years.

fighting retrogression and 485 filing during retrogression are important than this.

Its my opinion only, pls take it on a lighter note...

- Rishi

admin
02-06-2006, 10:35 AM
Here is a report from immigration-law.com

02/05/2006: DOL Resummitted and Obtained OMB Clearance of Proposed Labor Substitution Elimination Regulation on 02/02/2006

* This DOL and DHS proposed rule was cleared by the OMB last fall, but for unknown reasons, it has been pushed off. However, on February 2, 2006, Thursday, ETA/DOL resummitted the proposed rule and on the same day, the OMB cleared again this regulation. It is unknown at this time exactly when the DOL will publish this critical regulation but considering the fact that it reinstated the rule-making process as late as three days back, something must be cooking this time. Please stay tuned.

Great news, especially given that most of the body shoppers were using it for fraud. Also this would make it easier for USCIS to predict the actual usage of Visa numbers and thus move the PDs accurately.

ragz4u
02-06-2006, 10:38 AM
This is a step in the right direction. A lot of people wanted to get ahead of the queue by using pre-approved labors. The arrest of Nick Mandalapa, who was infamous for selling these labors openly on Sulekha, and now this are signs of good things to come :)

Do not be surprised if you read Murthy.com's response as being against a ban on labor substitution! After all, labor subsitution is good business for immigration lawyers.

As per www.immigration-law.com

DOL Resummitted and Obtained OMB Clearance of Proposed Labor Substitution Elimination Regulation on 02/02/2006

This DOL and DHS proposed rule was cleared by the OMB last fall, but for unknown reasons, it has been pushed off. However, on February 2, 2006, Thursday, ETA/DOL resummitted the proposed rule and on the same day, the OMB cleared again this regulation. It is unknown at this time exactly when the DOL will publish this critical regulation but considering the fact that it reinstated the rule-making process as late as three days back, something must be cooking this time. Please stay tuned

sai
02-06-2006, 01:46 PM
I dont think there will be a change to already in pipeline cases. Lets wait and see .:)

file485
02-06-2006, 01:55 PM
for the cases in pipeline nothing can be done..they r just saved...but now atleast people will step back to buy LCs approved...and consulting companies wont file file LCs in the hundreds...

USCIS dint know about the desi consulting companies r the kind 'if we give them place at the feet...they r ready to cut the throat...!'

they shud have done it long ago...Anyway better late than never....!!

H1B-GC
02-06-2006, 02:31 PM
I even read somewhere that once labor gets approved,Employer got to file I-140 within 60 days or so.

logiclife
02-06-2006, 02:57 PM
I dont think that you HAVE TO file I-140 within 60 days after labor is approved.

--logiclife.

ragz4u
02-06-2006, 03:07 PM
I dont think that you HAVE TO file I-140 within 60 days after labor is approved.

--logiclife.

I had read when this was proposed last time that if this is implemented, the employer will have 45 days from the date of labor approval to file for the I-140. What this prevents is sale of labors (illegaly obviously). A lot of labors from 2001/2002 were on sale till sometime ago (2005) on Sulekha. If/When this law is implemented, buying a labor will get you ahead of the queue by a max of 45 days instead of the 3/4 years today.

ragz4u
02-06-2006, 03:25 PM
http://www.murthy.com/news/n_endsub.html

H1B-GC
02-06-2006, 03:44 PM
i consider Mathew Oh,the most considerate and highy respected.His Q&A's are very individual centric but still answers those questions and posts those on his site.He provides links to other sites like immigrationportal.com though both of them are in immigration business(Simply Amazing).And he was the only one who was helpling us or showing real concern during s.1932 fiasco.Simply an Oustanding guy.Next comes Rajiv khanna since he never moderates the forum or censors other immigration sites in the forum.And for his lawsuit on behalf of all EB immigrants in 2002/2003.

And Regarding s.1932,it was posted on the Murthy site as breaking News :eek: after a week i believe that the Bill wasn't passed in the senate/house.It was a Joke of 2005!! :D

gonecrazyonh4
03-16-2006, 01:13 PM
Many of us are not aware of the extend of labor subtituion and the impact that it has on the visa numbers .

I personally know a case where 1-140 was filed in 2005, for a Labor which was approved as early as 2000.

The person was able to get his green card in 6 months time (he has been in US only for 1 year, came to work with the Indian company and joined this new firm just to get his substitute LC) and ate away 2 visa numbers which a genuine GC applicant should have got.

When there are applicants who are waiting for more than 5-7 years to get their green card and in some cases just to get through the labor certification process , isnt this grossly unfair?

Advocates support LC substituion as it is just one more avenue for them to make more money. Unscrupulous employers support the LC substituion since it helps them to make money ( as I understand many of these companies sell LC) . Also same LC is used multiple times.

The losers are genuine GC applicants who are ethical and companies which are ethical.

As a H4 visa holder my life in this country has been so very limited that even opening a bank account or getting a driving licence is tedious as most people have no clue about H4 Visa-its limitations including absence of SSN and donot acknowledge ITIN number for many of the above purposes.

We who are hindered by retrogression and the slow processing (actually no processing at all ) happening in the backlog centers should welcome this new legislation for Banning LC substituion.

gonecrazyonh4
03-16-2006, 01:23 PM
All the people in the piple line are saved, but atleast it will prevent further misuse of this loophole.

There should be some enquiry or auditing done on the old LC substituion cases and green cards revoked for those whose received theirs illegally and those visa numbers added back (wishful thinking).

Any auditing done on these cases would reveal lots of scams and possibily avert others from being unscrupulous.

Its so unfair that people jumb ahead of the que for upto 5 years using LC substitution.

onemoredesi
05-15-2006, 09:38 PM
Hello Friends and my fellow GC awaiters..
I have my labor pending for the past 3 yrs (my PD is Aug 2003) and have been waiting for ever. Inspite having a Master's I did filee in EB3 just because I work for a large company which does not allow to file in EB2.

Anyways, I came across a company who said that they have a pre approved labor (late 2002) priority date. Is it wise to go for it or wait for something in EB category to move ahead?. I have at least 1 yr 3 months on H1 and will not have any other options except to stay in the company after 3 months.
Is it worth taking the risk and go with the labor substitution?
The second question/advice I'd like from you is:
If I go back to the same company after 6 months because of some issue with the labor can I still preserve my 2003 PD?
Pls let me know your opinion.
Thx a lot guys.

Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies
1MoreDesi !

qualified_trash
05-17-2006, 07:11 PM
Hello Friends and my fellow GC awaiters..
I have my labor pending for the past 3 yrs (my PD is Aug 2003) and have been waiting for ever. Inspite having a Master's I did filee in EB3 just because I work for a large company which does not allow to file in EB2.

Anyways, I came across a company who said that they have a pre approved labor (late 2002) priority date. Is it wise to go for it or wait for something in EB category to move ahead?. I have at least 1 yr 3 months on H1 and will not have any other options except to stay in the company after 3 months.
Is it worth taking the risk and go with the labor substitution?
The second question/advice I'd like from you is:
If I go back to the same company after 6 months because of some issue with the labor can I still preserve my 2003 PD?
Pls let me know your opinion.
Thx a lot guys.

Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies
1MoreDesi !
I personally know of 2 friends - live within half a mile of where I do, who got their GCs using labor substitution. If the lawyer and sponsoring company are good, go for it. Keep in mind that this is going to go away soon.........

GotGC??
05-17-2006, 07:30 PM
Or did you mean the other way around?

I personally know of 2 friends - live within half a mile of where I do, who got their GCs using labor substitution. If the lawyer and sponsoring company are good, go for it. Keep in mind that this is going to go away soon.........

sajimm
05-17-2006, 09:50 PM
I would recommend to be very careful if you are considering to use substitution labor. See the quote from http://www.immigration-law.com below.

04/30/2006: Advisory for Substitution I-140 Filers Either Waiting Decision or On Appeal to AAO or Motion to Reopen/Reconsider

The DOL is currently finalizing the rule-making process to eliminate the substitution of labor certifications. The proposed rule which has already been published in the federal register has a clause exempting those who obtained the "substitution approved" at the time of the release of the final regulation which they are currently working on. No one can predict the exact date when this final regulation will be published in the federal register.
Under the current rule, there is no separate procedure for request for substitution of labor certification apart from the filing of I-140 petition for the new employee with the request to withdraw the pending or approved I-140 petition and substitute the alien beneficiary in the new I-140 petition proceeding. The employer's request for withdrawal of the pending I-140 petition or approved I-140 petition for the old employee is filed as part of the new I-140 petition filing on behalf of the new employee for the substitution. Accordingly, in this context, there is no separation decision which is issued by the USCIS for the approval of the substitutuion. The employers learn the approval of the substitution when they receive either denial or approval of the new substitution I-140 petitions.
Unfortunately, the proposed substitution elimination rule does not elaborate or define "approved substitution." Because of the current USCIS practice making the decision of substitution approval as part of the decision of I-140 petition itself, there is a risk that the DOL and the USCIS may argue that "approved substitution" means "I-140 petition approval." Such interpretation will lead to devastating consequences to the aliens who's I-140 petition will be pending or on appeal to the AAO on other legal issues such as the employer's financial ability to pay the proffered wage at the time of release of the "final regulation" in that all these I-140 petitions will have to be denied because of elimination of the substitution. The damage will mount in the situation of concurrent I-140 and I-485 applications for the alien employees and their family members.
It is thus prudent that the people whose substitution I-140 petitions are still pending consult their legal counsels to discuss strategies or options to avoid the potential deadly consequences

onemoredesi
05-19-2006, 09:57 AM
Thanks for the advice friends.
My brother applied and got his GC approved through labor substitution. It was really safe in the past. With the proposed bill to abandon the labor substitution, I'm a little concerned if it is alright to proceed.
I've talked to one of the attorney's and he mentioned that the Labor substitution will not likely go away as during the comment period they received a number of objections. But, nothing is certain.

My other concern is if the proposed immigration bill does some good to the legal immigrants, then whatever I am doing will be a waste and I'll be losing all of what I have in my current company (I am very well setlled in a multinational company in a good position). I am torn apart whether to take that risk or to stay put in the existing company.
When do you think the BEC's might complete the processing of existing backlogged applications?
When do you think any of these amendments will be implemented?
Lots of questions.. Your responses are highly appreciated.

Thx,
1MoreDesi!

knowDOL
05-19-2006, 10:44 AM
August 2003 is a good PD if it were EB2 and you could have stayed with your company. I heard in this forum from someone that, if the person is Masters graduate and worked in related for three years they are exempt from cap even though they applied in EB3 category. If this is true, it is good for you to stay in your current company and not try substitution. If this is not true and if I were you I would have gone for substitution.

What ever you do, do it with good terms with your current employer, so you can come back and join them and be able to use the 2003 PD, if some thing goes wrong with your substitution. If you leave the company and join something else, if you think that you cannot join them back, then it may not worth it. Again, it depends on your personal situation, if you don't have a spouse who is waiting for EAD to work, you should not be risking this.

onemoredesi
05-19-2006, 02:12 PM
Thx for the info.. knowDOL. Could you pls suggest me where you found that information (reg EB3 not coming under the cap).
Also, I have not received my 45 day letter so far.. don't know how long it is going to take..

August 2003 is a good PD if it were EB2 and you could have stayed with your company. I heard in this forum from someone that, if the person is Masters graduate and worked in related for three years they are exempt from cap even though they applied in EB3 category. If this is true, it is good for you to stay in your current company and not try substitution. If this is not true and if I were you I would have gone for substitution.

What ever you do, do it with good terms with your current employer, so you can come back and join them and be able to use the 2003 PD, if some thing goes wrong with your substitution. If you leave the company and join something else, if you think that you cannot join them back, then it may not worth it. Again, it depends on your personal situation, if you don't have a spouse who is waiting for EAD to work, you should not be risking this.

qualified_trash
06-21-2006, 04:11 PM
Friends,

Don't waste your time on this. The American employers will never agree to this as LC belongs to them and they don't want to waste time, money and effort again and again. The only problem I see is our desi consulting companies misusing this privilege.

I would say lets not waste our time as DOL/USCIS is trying to formulate ways to check 'LC Substitution Fraud'. At the same time they don't want to penalize the legitimate substitutions where an employee is already working for the same company for years.

fighting retrogression and 485 filing during retrogression are important than this.

Its my opinion only, pls take it on a lighter note...

- Rishi
very true ..................... but it is legal so ......... maybe we should all use it.

I know for a fact that this happens in companies (IT - product development and professional services) and I know this because a friend of mine (our kids play together these days so VERY close) was a beneficiary of such an LC and today has a GC and perm job to die for.......... I ofcourse will NOT disclose the name of the company or person for obvious reasons..........

He worked hard during his MS days to make it here and is just reaping the benefits of his hard work and ingenuity in identifying the opportunity in a legal system gone kaput.......... so no fault of his.

cagedcactus
06-21-2006, 04:20 PM
I took upon a couple of new employess in 2004 October and trained them for couple of months as per my job requirement. The company later laid off few guys and substituted two approved labors with these two guys. They got their greencards last year, while I am stuck with a F***ing 2003 PD.
I cant even say how mad I was over getting screwed like this, but hey, if there is any good left, maybe I will have my day too........

I agree with your post here.....

Many of us are not aware of the extend of labor subtituion and the impact that it has on the visa numbers .

I personally know a case where 1-140 was filed in 2005, for a Labor which was approved as early as 2000.

The person was able to get his green card in 6 months time (he has been in US only for 1 year, came to work with the Indian company and joined this new firm just to get his substitute LC) and ate away 2 visa numbers which a genuine GC applicant should have got.

When there are applicants who are waiting for more than 5-7 years to get their green card and in some cases just to get through the labor certification process , isnt this grossly unfair?

Advocates support LC substituion as it is just one more avenue for them to make more money. Unscrupulous employers support the LC substituion since it helps them to make money ( as I understand many of these companies sell LC) . Also same LC is used multiple times.

The losers are genuine GC applicants who are ethical and companies which are ethical.

As a H4 visa holder my life in this country has been so very limited that even opening a bank account or getting a driving licence is tedious as most people have no clue about H4 Visa-its limitations including absence of SSN and donot acknowledge ITIN number for many of the above purposes.

We who are hindered by retrogression and the slow processing (actually no processing at all ) happening in the backlog centers should welcome this new legislation for Banning LC substituion.

ksircar
06-21-2006, 04:47 PM
Hi Neocor,

I understand your frustration very well. Of course the labor substitution is not logical, but it is not the root of the problem. Just think rationally how many people take advantage of this option. The real cause of our problem is Number of Visas. As long as it is legal, people will go for it. They should not be blamed, rather it is our inability that we didn't find the right "Approved Labor". If you find something suitable, will you not go for it?

GCwaitforever
06-21-2006, 05:11 PM
The problem lies with entire GC process being Employer-centric. Employee is just a pawn in the game. Employers can do whatever they want. The market test for LCA conducted by DOL itself is so ridiculous. How would a test conducted in 2002 be any relevant for a Greencard application that would be approved six or eight years from that date?

brb2
06-21-2006, 05:52 PM
Labor substitution in my opinion is less that 1% of cases for some one jumping the line. The main problem is lack of visa numbers and processing delays. We are discussing a topic which will have little affect if any on our own GC process. It is a drop in the ocean to say the least.

I support its elimination because of the fraud that takes place. In the past I have got a pm on another immigration web site asking if I knew anyone who could "sell" them an approved labor!

onemoredesi
06-21-2006, 08:39 PM
Hey guys,

I think this issue is being blown out of proportion. Its not that easy to get approved using labor substitution. Recently, I came across a pre approved labor but could not use it..just because the skills that are mentioned and what I work in do not match..

Let us say if my pending labor is filed as a Programmer Analyst with experience in Java, J2EE, etc and the pre approved labor is a VB/ASP position then I cannot use it, even if I fake VB/ASP experience. This is because, my pending applicaiton will be pulled when my I140 is applied and the 2 applications do not match.. That itself will raise a red flag.

People who are using labor substitution needs to be extremely lucky to have found a pre-approved labor in their field of work and with a PD which is current..

My strong opinion is that Labor Substitution is not at all the reason for our problems..My Labor still unapproved is 2003 PD and I did my Master's here but my company did not file my application in eb2..I have been looking for a pre approved labor which is before 2003... came across two, but could not use either of them..

Just my 2 cents!

1MoreDesi

shreekarthik
06-22-2006, 10:23 AM
so where can I get labor for sale ?

shree19772000
08-03-2006, 02:24 PM
Hi All,
I am starting a new thread to clarify a roumour I heard that begining August 2006 the labour substitution is not possible. Can anyone confirm this please.

Thanks

san_visa
08-03-2006, 03:13 PM
I have applied (I-140) EB3 :mad: in May 06 using substitution. My case is not through yet...waiting for approval.
My lawyer did a typo :mad: filed me under Manager/Executive category [EB3] and received notification from USCIS requesting additional evidence. The lawyer responded to the RFE.

Hopefully my case will be processed in August 06 !
I should receive response anytime soon I will keep you posted.

Thanks,
San

sbabunle
08-03-2006, 04:16 PM
Hello shree19772000
There is a proposal to stop labor substitution which was
put for public comments. It was like a few months ago. If they finalize it, labor substitution will be completely eliminated. But I'm not sure of the timeline of this.

babu

sbabunle
08-03-2006, 04:22 PM
Here is the link
http://www.murthy.com/news/n_elisub.html
on more abt substitution

retropain
08-03-2006, 04:35 PM
don't even think about it. It is grossly unfair to people whove been waiting in line for years.

I don't mind substituion per se as long as people get new priority dates.
IV- we should have a poll on whether labor substitution is fair.

nixstor
08-03-2006, 04:45 PM
While I accept that it is unfair, How many of the people will not take a labor substitution if they feel that the company is good and kept their books nice. Retropain, You, me and some xyz might stick to FIFO and wait in line but not every one does. I am sure 99% of the people who vote on your poll will say its unfair and must be removed. Do you still need one? I feel that substitution will be gone soon.

perm2gc
08-03-2006, 05:19 PM
The Labour substitution is good option for few but not many. The process should be totally elimindate so that FIFO people will have a fair chance.Their only few people who really are need of it but 99% are fraudant people.

knowDOL
08-03-2006, 05:21 PM
The comment period ended April 17th 2006. I heard, Many top companies were against elimination, probably, because they had plenty of labors using which they could attract senior and bright H-1B's. Also, I think USCIS needs to publish an elimination of substitution in this respect which will again have to go through comment period, only after all this the elimination will come into place.

But the reason why elimination proposal came in is because of fraud and not because of unfair ness to people who are in line or FIFO because of transfer of PD. DOL and USCIS noticed that companies are sellling Labors which is fraud. There was some memo that USCIS will not publish until last quarter, soeveryone expected the rule will become effective by August September time frame. But I have not read anything as of today that the USCIS published anything in Federal register relatting substituion elimination.

Probably we should wait and watch. My guess is that something may come by October 1st, 2006. Only an assumption.

subba
08-03-2006, 06:33 PM
I think another positive aspect of banning labor substitution would be, for people who switch jobs after I140 approval the chances of old employer revoking application is slim (because employer can't reuse labor for anyone else).

Am I right?

eb3India
08-03-2006, 07:03 PM
labor subst is good for those who can use it and of course it'z not fair for others,

Is Immigration process is a right place to talk about fairness,

my point is labour subst is not hurting is big time, Itz just some of us get jealouse when they see others getting ahead of the line

IV needs to focus itz energy on much broader issues

Alabaman
08-03-2006, 07:19 PM
Pardon my ignorance, how does labor substitution work and what is FIFO?

days_go_by
08-04-2006, 08:16 AM
08/04/2006: Final Rule of Labor Certification Substitution Elimination: Where Is It?

* A rumor starts surfacing in the immigrant community that the DOL is finalizing the rule-making process for this final rule and the rule may be published in the federal register in the near future. This rumor has not been confirmed by the DOL. Neither the OMB rule-making agenda reflects such request by the DOL. We will closely watch and monitor this rule-making process. Please stay tuned.

nb_des
08-04-2006, 04:00 PM
Pardon my ignorance, how does labor substitution work and what is FIFO?
There is no FIFO (first in first out) with respect to backlog processing . It may be LIFO.

yabadaba
08-04-2006, 04:05 PM
seriously...when we are done with our current task of retrogression relief we should modify IV's goals to ensure that loopholes like labor substitution are eliminated.

let us get credible as a citizen effort for fair, reliable and efficient immigration process.

newtogc
10-03-2006, 12:39 AM
Hi All,

One company offered me pre-approved labour, with PD as Dec-2004. They are mentioning that I can file i140 immediately as soon as my H1-B transffered to new company.
I have been hearing the news about LC substitution elimination. Any authentic news regarding this? Even if the USCIS publish the news regarding the elimination of LC substitution, Will it undergo the hearing / comment process. During this time can I apply for i140?

Is it better to take this LC( all the criteria required for sub is matched) or apply a new labour under PERM process.
Currently I am in my first H1-B and valid till Oct 2007.

In similar line, what are 45 day letters? Does it apply to my case.

Please need experts advice in this regard.

Thanks,
BNR.

newtogc
10-03-2006, 02:54 AM
Hi All,

One company offered me pre-approved labour, with PD as Dec-2004. They are mentioning that I can file i140 immediately as soon as
my H1-B transffered to new company.

I have been hearing the news about LC substitution elimination from DOL.
Has they announced any dead line for filing the Labor Substitutions ? or expecting soon.
Has they announced any validity period on approved LCs to regularise this process?
If yes - How is it going to effect my case?

Is it better to take this LC( all the criteria required for sub is matched) or apply a new labour under PERM process.
Currently I am in my first H1-B and valid till Oct 2007.

Please need experts advice in this regard.

Thanks,
BNR.

cr52401
10-03-2006, 08:34 AM
August 2003 is a good PD if it were EB2 and you could have stayed with your company. I heard in this forum from someone that, if the person is Masters graduate and worked in related for three years they are exempt from cap even though they applied in EB3 category. If this is true, it is good for you to stay in your current company and not try substitution. If this is not true and if I were you I would have gone for substitution.

What ever you do, do it with good terms with your current employer, so you can come back and join them and be able to use the 2003 PD, if some thing goes wrong with your substitution. If you leave the company and join something else, if you think that you cannot join them back, then it may not worth it. Again, it depends on your personal situation, if you don't have a spouse who is waiting for EAD to work, you should not be risking this.


Did yo umean if new law pass them EB3 is exempt from cap? can you give me some refrence. Also you must have master from us or other country is ok?
Thank you for your help.

netnerd
10-03-2006, 11:41 AM
Dear Friends,

As of current law, having Master's is NOT exempt from the cap regardless of being EB2 or EB3. While IV is trying hard to get this included in a future bill, this is not the case as of now.

Hope this helps.

Did yo umean if new law pass them EB3 is exempt from cap? can you give me some refrence. Also you must have master from us or other country is ok?
Thank you for your help.

nk2006
10-03-2006, 12:41 PM
Hello Friends and my fellow GC awaiters..
Is it worth taking the risk and go with the labor substitution?
The second question/advice I'd like from you is:
If I go back to the same company after 6 months because of some issue with the labor can I still preserve my 2003 PD?
1MoreDesi !

First of all couple of things: (i) As of now there is no exemption for master degree holders (either from US or outside). There are provisions in SKIL bill and CIR but as you might know already they havnt yet passed in the congress and there is no gaurantee if/when they will be passed. (ii) Labor substitution is available now - this can go away or can stay because of large number of comments.

I can understand your dilemma. I was in a similar situation last year. My new employer "assured" me labor sub. But after a few months they backtracked saying the lawyer thinks that it wont match with my skills etc. and some such technicalities. So be very careful/particular about if your new employer will use substitution for sure. Next thing to consider (actually most important one in ideal circumstances) is which job is in-line with your future plans and which one you like the most. If your present one is very good and you are very happy there - then I think its worth staying and hope for the best in the coming bills. If you think both are of same nature then take the sub (while maintaining a good relations with old employer) and get the greencard early. In my case I left a job that I loved the most and was in line with my future plans - thinking that if I get GC early it will ease my tension and sleep better in nights and hoping that my new employer would do everything they mentioned before joining there. Now they didnt give me the sub (but are applying in PERM) and my previous employer situation is also changed and are in a hiring freeze (taking me back is now considered a new hiring) - so I am feeling stuck and unhappy. I am posting this just so you are aware of possible risks. Hope this helps.

gc_in_30_yrs
10-03-2006, 12:42 PM
Hi All,

One company offered me pre-approved labour, with PD as Dec-2004. They are mentioning that I can file i140 immediately as soon as
my H1-B transffered to new company.

I have been hearing the news about LC substitution elimination from DOL.
Has they announced any dead line for filing the Labor Substitutions ? or expecting soon.
Has they announced any validity period on approved LCs to regularise this process?
If yes - How is it going to effect my case?

Is it better to take this LC( all the criteria required for sub is matched) or apply a new labour under PERM process.
Currently I am in my first H1-B and valid till Oct 2007.

Please need experts advice in this regard.

Thanks,
BNR.


there should not be any problem for you. but it is discouraged to go for labor substitution as it is literally jumping the line. there are so many people waiting for their LC and someone came in line just now taking pd from 2004 or before will definately pisses them off. otherwise, you should be okay to take that one.

newtogc
10-04-2006, 02:48 AM
Is there any last date for LC substitutions.
Has DOL/USCIS come up with any regulations after taking public comments regarding elimination of LC subs.

dks
10-04-2006, 09:12 AM
Desi companies are to blame but not always.

This is a common practice in big companies. Guess which companies have got the most number of LC's to substitute. It is some of the big software and consulting firms. Myself being a part of one such company have seen a lot of my co-workers use it to get their GC. I will admit though that in big companies it is used after one of the following has happened:

1> You have been stuck in LC stage for a long time.
2> The initial original LC got messed up due to lawyer or company negligence.
3> The I-140 stage got messed up due to lawyer or company negligence.
4> You are an old employee but did not somehow start your GC process till you only had a year or less remaining on your H-1.


Unfortunately for me, none of the above has happened so the company will not use LC substitution for me. But it is a common practice.

seahawks
10-04-2006, 10:24 AM
as far as I don't agree about the system where people who come in after us get their GC through labor substitution, and the system is being abused. I wish they would count years of stay in America, rather than anything else:)

Jimi_Hendrix
10-04-2006, 10:37 AM
I have seen at least three thread in the past that discussed labor sub bashing. So you guys made your point, it is an evil practice and it screws those standing behind. We already know that this practice might be ended soon. So why are we discussing this issue for the fourth time all over again? :rolleyes:

qplearn
10-04-2006, 11:37 AM
Desi companies are to blame but not always.

This is a common practice in big companies. Guess which companies have got the most number of LC's to substitute. It is some of the big software and consulting firms. Myself being a part of one such company have seen a lot of my co-workers use it to get their GC. I will admit though that in big companies it is used after one of the following has happened:

1> You have been stuck in LC stage for a long time.
2> The initial original LC got messed up due to lawyer or company negligence.
3> The I-140 stage got messed up due to lawyer or company negligence.
4> You are an old employee but did not somehow start your GC process till you only had a year or less remaining on your H-1.


Unfortunately for me, none of the above has happened so the company will not use LC substitution for me. But it is a common practice.

Many big companies (I am not referring to desi companies here) use it when they fire a guy for whom they have an approved labor cert. This is the commonest scenario. Until sub labor is banned, and there is no certainty that it will be, we will have to live with this menace.

A person I know was so delighted when his colleague was fired because he got to use his LC; they were doing a very similar job. I am talking about a very large firm in Dallas.

GCard_Dream
10-04-2006, 03:39 PM
Well.. may be because we don't have any legislative issues to talk about until congress comes back from recess in November. By the way, how do you know that this practice might be ending soon. I know DOL was considering this and was receiving inputs back in April but nothing came out of that. They have thought about this before and they are thinking about it again. DOL knows that this system is being misused to the fullest extent and want to put a stop to it but they never do due to the pressure from companies misusing them. Why do you think DOL will act now? I have my doubts that anything will be done.

I have seen at least three thread in the past that discussed labor sub bashing. So you guys made your point, it is an evil practice and it screws those standing behind. We already know that this practice might be ended soon. So why are we discussing this issue for the fourth time all over again? :rolleyes:

Jimi_Hendrix
10-04-2006, 05:30 PM
my post carefully, you would notice that I used the words 'might be'.

Cheers,

Jimi

alterego
10-04-2006, 06:50 PM
I have seen all sorts of posting on both this forum as well as others supporting the process of labour substitution.
This issue needs careful analysis. Just as a knife can be used for a useful purpose of slicing bread, but also for the criminal purpose of committing homicide, so can the LC be used by the employer to truly get a desperately needed skilled employee or to sell it to the highest bidder.
In the former case it is appropriate whoever the beneficiary and however recently he has arrived. In the latter scenario it is neither fair nor appropriate.
Much of the problem as I see it here is on the basis of the basic abuse in the system. In my view this provision in the immigration law leads to more abuse on the part of employers, lawyers and opportunist immigrants. All this to the detriment of fair minded law abiding immigrants.
I have wrestled with this issue a lot. In my situation, I am in a situation of relative comfort. I have an approved 140 in a very stable job with pending 485s for me and my wife albeit with very recent PDs which I am not about to see become current for years in the current scenario.
My wife is in an area of quite good demand where there are all sorts of substitute labours floating about. Technically, I could have her take the gamble with the security and back up my situation provides.
Yet I have not done so (to date). Yet I am not foolish enough to make any long term bets either. I am an idealist but also a realist. I have much to gain or potentially lose by the scrapping of this provision. Hence I consider myself neutral and able to take a neutral view on this issue.
My feeling is this thing is wrong as it currently stands. Yet I will not promise not to use it if the powers that be are stupid enough to let is stand as it is currently stated.

That is my best asssessment of this situation.

perm2gc
10-04-2006, 07:44 PM
I just got to this site via from immigration portal.
I have been reading a lot in the other forum and here about the ways to cure retrogression. Lobbying for more Visa's and other things that were part of the S.1932 bill are fine, however these things are not going to solve the retrogression problem even if such a bill gets passed.

No one seems to be talking about the real problem that is Labor Substitution. Abolishing Labor Substitution will itself take care of every retrogression problem.

The INS does not have the right tools to police the misue of this rule. This is resutling in a lot of problems for even those employees whose Labor's get substituted even if they are still working in the same company.

Any effort to reform immigration should start with first reforming the Labor Substitution rule (if not completely abolish).
I know that all the companies/employers and the lawyers community are against removing the Labor substitution, therefore it will never be removed, but atleast it should be reformed so that it can be better policed so that no one is able to misuse it and play with peoples lives. And in turn add to retregression.

Following reforms are needed in Labor Substitution.

- First thing in the Labor Substitution reform is related to the Priority date. The Priority Date for a substituted Labor should the date when the Labor is substituted (or the I-140 filing date). It should not be be the date when the Labor was originally filed. This in itself will solve 90% of the problems related to retrogression.

- When a Labor is substituted it should be verified immediately to find if there is any I-140 or I-485 that is pending based on this Labor. If so then the Labor should be rejected immediately. Currently this is not done at the time the Labor is substituted, therefore the resulting 485 filing just amounts to add up into the backlog of Visa Number requirement, until the priority date becomes current for this 485.

- If an employee invokes the AC21 then that Labor should not be allowed to be substituted.

- There should be a limit to the time until which a Labor can be substituted. This could be debatable and could have other consequences, as the INS could invalidate any GC application that is been pending for more than the this duration.

In short the Labour substitution rule is in a mess and is getting miused a lot. People are getting fooled by the employers, and ultimately its making the retrogression more worse.

neocor


i am aware my threads on same scenario..do we need to discuss same thing again and again..please search the forum before opening new thread...

eb3_nepa
10-23-2006, 12:34 PM
Hello everyone.

I was wondering if someone could point me to how exactly labor substitution works.

Before anyone starts jumping down my throat, i am JUST looking for documentation on the full process and I DID try looking on the google.

If someone has any article on labor substitution and how it works please post it on here.

eb3_nepa
10-23-2006, 01:08 PM
^^

gcretroiv
10-23-2006, 02:00 PM
I guess nobody answer this even they know. Probably everybody is angry on Labor substitution

qplearn
10-23-2006, 02:02 PM
Hello everyone.

I was wondering if someone could point me to how exactly labor substitution works.

Before anyone starts jumping down my throat, i am JUST looking for documentation on the full process and I DID try looking on the google.

If someone has any article on labor substitution and how it works please post it on here.

Best of luck!

eb3_nepa
10-23-2006, 02:19 PM
Best of luck!

Guys I am NOTTT looking to subsitute my labor or anything of the sort. I just want to read through the docs to see what exactly is labor substitution all about. I mean i have read a WHOLE lot about it especially ON here and was wondering how EXACTLY this whole process works.

If anyone knows any website that explains how LC substitution works please post a link on here.

eb3India
10-23-2006, 03:02 PM
as name suggests, you find a company with a already approved labour, they will apply your 1-140 with that labour, if you I-140 is approved you get to keep his PD and get a free ride,

while myself, has to wait 2 years for labour and another few years till my PD becomes current

in labor sub case, if one can find approved labour before 2001 (if you happen to be from India). you can get 1140 approval and apply for 485 if you everthing goes well you have your GC in 6-12 months

and did I mention this perfectly legal.

lot of guys cry sour grape about labour sub. if you ask me, if you have opporunity use it, I would

eb3_nepa
10-23-2006, 03:08 PM
Thanks eb3India.

How does the current company obtain a pre-approved labor? Does it buy the pre-app labour? Or is it SOLELY because someone in the company left (whose labor was approved)?

I was reading a lot about the controversy about why it should be stopped etc so i was wondering if someone had any documentation on why it was started in the first place and how it works

Thanks

god_bless_you
10-23-2006, 03:33 PM
Hello everyone.

I was wondering if someone could point me to how exactly labor substitution works.

Before anyone starts jumping down my throat, i am JUST looking for documentation on the full process and I DID try looking on the google.

If someone has any article on labor substitution and how it works please post it on here.

Check Immigration Portal forums Labor certification .. Preapproved LC
Labor substitution Pros Con's etc.. widely discussed there...

http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?t=123495

amoljak
10-23-2006, 04:12 PM
Thanks eb3India.

How does the current company obtain a pre-approved labor? Does it buy the pre-app labour? Or is it SOLELY because someone in the company left (whose labor was approved)?

I was reading a lot about the controversy about why it should be stopped etc so i was wondering if someone had any documentation on why it was started in the first place and how it works

Thanks

The standard process approved by the DOFSY is that they sell 1500 pre-approved labors on E-bay every year. The Auction starts at 13:34 EST on February 7th each year and continues for a day. Once you buy the labors, there is a lobor subs market just like the stock market. People bid and buy labor certs whenever they need it.

( :) Take this post lightly )

qualified_trash
10-23-2006, 04:23 PM
Thanks eb3India.

How does the current company obtain a pre-approved labor? Does it buy the pre-app labour? Or is it SOLELY because someone in the company left (whose labor was approved)?

I was reading a lot about the controversy about why it should be stopped etc so i was wondering if someone had any documentation on why it was started in the first place and how it works

Thanks
a company that has had the LC approved can reuse it for someone else. that is all!!

amoljak
10-23-2006, 04:27 PM
Thanks eb3India.

How does the current company obtain a pre-approved labor? Does it buy the pre-app labour? Or is it SOLELY because someone in the company left (whose labor was approved)?


Labor certification means a company is certifying that they cannot find an American to do the job, lets say write a Java program. So once they certify that, they can say look we have this dude from India who can write Java programs, we want to hire him permanently. But what if the dude gets a better job or goes back to India or both...? The company still needs someone to write that Java program... they have established that they are not able to find an American to do that... so they can say this dude-2 has the same qualifications as the dude whom we originally want... so let us hire him permanently... so that is labor substitution... there is genuine business case to do that.

eb3_nepa
10-23-2006, 04:39 PM
Now can the company SELL this Labor certification? Can another company BUY such a Certification? I have heard a lot on this site about LC substituion and how they are sold/bought at a premium. How does all that work. Is that even possible?

amoljak
10-23-2006, 05:02 PM
Now can the company SELL this Labor certification? Can another company BUY such a Certification? I have heard a lot on this site about LC substituion and how they are sold/bought at a premium. How does all that work. Is that even possible?

eb3_nepa, some people have the special ability to create business opportunities when others see none. E.g. Do you think a job at a primary school can be sold? Think again. You have to buy it in India. Another example... have you been to the Empire state building? For $12 you can wait in line for ~4 hours and enjoy the view after that. But for $40 you can go straight to the top. With labor sub its the same deal. Your company has an approved labor, there are 5 suckers who would otherwise wait 10 years in the GC line. They all do a great job of Java programming that you need your prospective employee to do. How do you decide which one to hire?

For some companies its easy.. they select the one who pays them a premium.

To your other question... no you cannot transfer approved labor to other company... so if you want to be in this business of labor subs, you have to go through the pains of labor before being able to sell one...

Some smart people have figured another great business. They go through the labor pains once and then clone the labor certs (hint: color copier)... those visionaries sometimes end up behind bars...

eb3_nepa
10-23-2006, 05:17 PM
eb3_nepa, some people have the special ability to create business opportunities when others see none. E.g. Do you think a job at a primary school can be sold? Think again. You have to buy it in India. Another example... have you been to the Empire state building? For $12 you can wait in line for ~4 hours and enjoy the view after that. But for $40 you can go straight to the top. With labor sub its the same deal. Your company has an approved labor, there are 5 suckers who would otherwise wait 10 years in the GC line. They all do a great job of Java programming that you need your prospective employee to do. How do you decide which one to hire?

For some companies its easy.. they select the one who pays them a premium.

To your other question... no you cannot transfer approved labor to other company... so if you want to be in this business of labor subs, you have to go through the pains of labor before being able to sell one...

Some smart people have figured another great business. They go through the labor pains once and then clone the labor certs (hint: color copier)... those visionaries sometimes end up behind bars...



Thanks for the reply Amoljak,

Now if you can please remove all the sarcasm and explain this in more detail in laymen's terms, it would really help me. I mean how is it that atleast 10 members on this site have mentioned people selling and buying LCs LEGALLY! Were they bluffing or are we reading into the law wrongly?

Thanks

GCisLottery
10-23-2006, 06:05 PM
Thanks for the reply Amoljak,

Now if you can please remove all the sarcasm and explain this in more detail in laymen's terms, it would really help me. I mean how is it that atleast 10 members on this site have mentioned people selling and buying LCs LEGALLY! Were they bluffing or are we reading into the law wrongly?

Thanks
I don't know the business of this, but it is just fraud and that's precisely why USCIS wants to get rid of it. It is a genuinely OK route for companies that can't hold onto people and has to substitute.

My assumption is they are "buying" those LCs and join those money making companies, stay there as long as they legally have to stay and get out.

Now some mod please close this thread.

same_old_guy
10-23-2006, 06:43 PM
Buddy, if you want to do substitution - just do it. Talk to some lawyer and get right info. You dont have to gloat around here.

I cant speak for others but discussing on labor sub is like itching the wound. Most people here really hate the whole concept of labor sub. Lets not get in to other people's nerves at time like this.

Good luck to you. No hard feeling.

PS : There are lots of other forums you can get tons of information. for instance, murthy or immigrationportal.

amoljak
10-24-2006, 09:55 AM
Thanks for the reply Amoljak,

Now if you can please remove all the sarcasm and explain this in more detail in laymen's terms, it would really help me. I mean how is it that atleast 10 members on this site have mentioned people selling and buying LCs LEGALLY! Were they bluffing or are we reading into the law wrongly?

Thanks

Lets say you have a company. You apply for some-one's labor. The labor is approved. Then the guy leaves. So you have one approved labor. You can then ask me to give you a "gift" of lets say $30,000 and in due course you will employ me in that position. Technically this is illegal, just like it is to take campaign contributions to vote in a certain way...But in practice it is hard to establish quid pro quo in these cases. More so when the person is willingly paying the money and is not willing to turn on the seller. So people who say you can buy LCs legally are WRONG.

eb3_nepa
10-24-2006, 11:00 AM
Lets say you have a company. You apply for some-one's labor. The labor is approved. Then the guy leaves. So you have one approved labor. You can then ask me to give you a "gift" of lets say $30,000 and in due course you will employ me in that position. Technically this is illegal, just like it is to take campaign contributions to vote in a certain way...But in practice it is hard to establish quid pro quo in these cases. More so when the person is willingly paying the money and is not willing to turn on the seller. So people who say you can buy LCs legally are WRONG.

Ok got it thanks Amoljak

So then that is the only way one can SELL you an approved LC?

amoljak
10-24-2006, 11:17 AM
Ok got it thanks Amoljak

So then that is the only way one can SELL you an approved LC?

Yes... other than some rare outright frauds who make counterfeit LCs etc. But they always get caught, because their scams are so stupid...

qualified_trash
10-24-2006, 11:24 AM
Ok got it thanks Amoljak

So then that is the only way one can SELL you an approved LC?
there are also genuine cases where a big company will use the labor approved to try and retain another employ. say they file for LC for employee A. it gets approved but A decides to quit. they can then reuse it for an existing employee who is important to them and employee B then essentially gets to the I140 stage.

vinabath
10-24-2006, 12:01 PM
If you join Microsoft , you might get less salary but they pay your insurance 100%. Is microsoft selling insurance to you?? its just a benefit/perk being an employee of microsoft.

same thing here too... pre-approved labor is just a perk/benefit offered by employer to hire you with less salary. so if you think you sacrificed your salary to get to cut the line for getting GC then you are thinking right.if not please stop thinking like socialist.

It all about money and business brother.

perm2gc
10-24-2006, 12:06 PM
If you join Microsoft , you might get less salary but they pay your insurance 100%. Is microsoft selling insurance to you?? its just a benefit/perk being an employee of microsoft.

same thing here too... pre-approved labor is just a perk/benefit offered by employer to hire you with less salary. so if you think you sacrificed your salary to get to cut the line for getting GC then you are thinking right.if not please stop thinking like socialist.

It all about money and business brother.
We have so much discussion on this topic in many threads but i dont know why people want to discuss samething again and again.

We know LC substituion is good for few and worst for many...

Admins can you please close the thread...

amoljak
10-24-2006, 12:11 PM
We have so much discussion on this topic in many threads but i dont know why people want to discuss samething again and again.

We know LC substituion is good for few and worst for many...

Admins can you please close the thread...

One person stepped out of the line and another one took his place... How is that worse for you (or anybody else)? (let alone worst) You are still 957,643rd in the line :)

vinabath
10-24-2006, 12:11 PM
I have a different opinion.

ilwaiting
10-24-2006, 12:33 PM
Looks like a question for "HowStuffworks.com". But anyway, this is a complicated issue that an attorney can advise you better. And as you might see not many people here like this topic.

GCSOON-Ihope
10-24-2006, 12:57 PM
I 100% agree that selling or buying an LC should be absolutely prohibited.
However the principle itself makes sense in some cases.
A few years ago, a friend of mine was endlessly waiting for his LC when a co-worker of his (with an approved LC) suddenly quit to go back to his home country. The company (that was paying all the fees) then used this approved labor so that my friend could get his GC faster. Since that company was fair and honest, he never had to pay a dime for it.
So, he got his GC a couple years ago and I am still waiting...
Am I jealous? You bet! Angry? No. My friend took advantage of a legal loophole and, let's not be hypocrite here, who wouldn't have done the same in this particular situation?
But again, making a business out of those LCs should be 100% illegal.

ragz4u
10-24-2006, 01:52 PM
I was under the impression that only an 'approved' labor can be substituted. I recently had a conversation with a friend whose company attorney had told him that even unapproved labors stuck in the Backlog center can be substituted.

I am pretty confident that this is another case of an unethical, not-well-versed lawyer wishing to make a quick buck, but can someone please enlighten me if I am wrong?

eb3_nepa
10-24-2006, 02:18 PM
This discussion was started by EXACTLY like a "HOWSTUFFWORKS" quesion. Unforutunately it has ballooned into a "Ethics" question!!

shirish
10-24-2006, 04:34 PM
I have a question on a similer subject, but not exactly labour sub

In my case my previous company filed my labour, i got it approved, then i got my 140 approved too. But i had to leave the company (I could have stayed for the GC but had to leave- before leaving that company i worked in their india office for 2 years). Then they used my approved labour for another employee.

I have joined another company and back in the US now,i understand that the labour is not for me, i have to go for the labour again, but is it possible to use my previous PD.

perm2gc
10-24-2006, 05:47 PM
One person stepped out of the line and another one took his place... How is that worse for you (or anybody else)? (let alone worst) You are still 957,643rd in the line :)
Line will always move forward not stand still like a wall...:p :p :p

pdjan2003
11-09-2006, 09:39 AM
One of my friends informed me about immigrationvoice.com few months back, I am EB3 with PD Jan 2003 and currently waiting to file I-485 for last one year. It is frustrating to hear how some of the companies are bypassing and jumping ahead on the line. I thought I get some opinion; I am curious why this isn't being bunged. Although using a pre-approved labor is a legal thing, how much of sagacity does it really have? Within my little 10-12 friend circle I have had atleast FOUR people who got their GC within 8 months through this same company - KFORCE, Rapidigm Inc., utilizing pre-approved labor. It seems this company lures people with a condition that they will process their GC within couple of months, isn't this using the legal system at their business advantage.

What can we do to stop this, it is frustrating to me as I am waiting for close to four years with my GC process and been in the US for 7 years. At the same time, I see people who have been in the US for 2 years has their GC. To me this legal system does not make any sense and is a clear proof of injustice. I am thinking of talking to a legal attorney to see if this makes a justifiable case and if possible file a lawsuit for scrutiny against this company or any company that uses this facility for their benefit. May be I am overreacting and this is the reason I am posting it here to get an opinion, what do you guys think ?

geve
11-09-2006, 10:17 AM
You are right my friend. In fact you explained every thing. Your concerns are valid. However as you said you are overreacting. In other words you are stretching your strengths.

You said 4 of them are your friends. By giving complaint on company i do not know what is the outcome. Can also effect the approved GC candidates.

There is fine line between DHARMAM AND NYAYAM. Personnally i do not think they did wrong. Neither the company nor the candidates. They just used the available system.

We can argue or put our opinion to the law makers. One of my friend who came along with me on the same flight, same day from india throught same company can apply for citizenship next year.

where as me

EB3 -- May 2003
I-140 approved Mar 2006

We are all on same page. Forget about what happened to others. Think what we can do? I am not trying to teach, just trying to coll you down.

katewill
11-09-2006, 10:20 AM
oh well, this is how i feel. "i should have studied more and started with EB2"
rules are rules, fair or unfair.
what have you done other than just waiting? ( i've been waiting too)
while others changed jobs and moved on to EB2 and got GC in 6 month.
maybe you can also search companies with sub labor.
you could have done alot of things if you needed to, but you didn't. (i didn't either)

qualified_trash
11-09-2006, 10:21 AM
One of my friends informed me about immigrationvoice.com few months back, I am EB3 with PD Jan 2003 and currently waiting to file I-485 for last one year. It is frustrating to hear how some of the companies are bypassing and jumping ahead on the line. I thought I get some opinion; I am curious why this isn't being bunged. Although using a pre-approved labor is a legal thing, how much of sagacity does it really have? Within my little 10-12 friend circle I have had atleast FOUR people who got their GC within 8 months through this same company - KFORCE, Rapidigm Inc., utilizing pre-approved labor. It seems this company lures people with a condition that they will process their GC within couple of months, isn't this using the legal system at their business advantage.

What can we do to stop this, it is frustrating to me as I am waiting for close to four years with my GC process and been in the US for 7 years. At the same time, I see people who have been in the US for 2 years has their GC. To me this legal system does not make any sense and is a clear proof of injustice. I am thinking of talking to a legal attorney to see if this makes a justifiable case and if possible file a lawsuit for scrutiny against this company or any company that uses this facility for their benefit. May be I am overreacting and this is the reason I am posting it here to get an opinion, what do you guys think ?
it is a business advantage and companies are using the same to lure employees. that is the IMHO the right way to utilize the approved labor cert.

the injustice is when there is bidding going on and people actually take money to give you the labor cert........... that is I think illegal........

there is nothing wrong with a business using the law to further itself. the goal of the business is to make money for its stakeholders within the framework of laws laid down by the government.

i sincerely hope that you will remember this when and if you do decide to start/own a business............

anilsal
11-09-2006, 10:33 AM
This discussion can go on and on. Here is my take.

* US is one of the countries people are flocking into. Even lots of people from UK, Australia and Canada come here to settle.
* Given this, whenever there are opportunities to lure people in, there will be takers and people who sell (like preapproved labor). If USCIS puts a stop on preapproved labor, then there will be other avenues to take advantage of.

You may have others in your field/company who are less-educated than you, younger than you and earning more than you, so can you lose sleep over it? No! It is part of life.

Just focus your energies on IV and its adoption. :)

GCBy3000
11-09-2006, 11:11 AM
Well said. These kind of feelings are general for human beings. But thinking and worrying about any problem is not going to fetch you anything. If anyone has problem, then they have to start thinking about a solution. This is help them to overcome the the real problem. Thinking and worrying about it will make the problem wrost.

Every human being is having two virtual circles in his entire life. The inner circle is circle of influence on which you have full control and outer one is circle of concern on which you dont have any control. You cannot change the weather(outer circle). Worrying about how cold or hot is not going to help you, but you can wear adequate clothing(inner circle with your control) to over come it.

So think what you can do with what you have in your control. This will bring peace and happiness in your life and eventually will enable you to overcome big issues in simple way.

Ok now for BASHERS: IF YOU DONT LIKE, PLS IGNORE IT. I should add this in my signature.

This discussion can go on and on. Here is my take.

* US is one of the countries people are flocking into. Even lots of people from UK, Australia and Canada come here to settle.
* Given this, whenever there are opportunities to lure people in, there will be takers and people who sell (like preapproved labor). If USCIS puts a stop on preapproved labor, then there will be other avenues to take advantage of.

You may have others in your field/company who are less-educated than you, younger than you and earning more than you, so can you lose sleep over it? No! It is part of life.

Just focus your energies on IV and its adoption. :)

humdesi
11-09-2006, 12:07 PM
Found an interesting thread on this topic in immigrationportal. The post below is by vm_gc who got his GC recently:

Hi qwerty1111,

I completely understand where your comment is coming from and respect your comments. But to be fair, i think it's just not appropriate making such comment without completely knowing my situvation.

I came to this country in 2000 and start working for my current employer, one of the reputed big technology company, in 2000. As the dot com bust started in late 2000, my company stopped applying green cards for employees as per law (since they were not in a position to show not availability of people with my skills and at the same time they started laying off people). But i still chose to stay with my current employer due to the kind of work we do and learning opportunities in my job. Finally my employer applied my GC in 2005 that to non-RIR category (not even RIR category as they still had some issues in applying RIR) as my 6year term was coming near. And this labor is still rotting in the backlog center and i don't know when it will be cleared (and i have already completed my 6year h1b term).

And in sept 2005, my employer gave me a sub labor, as the labor matched my skills and based on my superior performance (since there were many people similiar to my situvation in my company). This sub labor, i neither bought with money nor with some recommendations. It's completely earned by working hard.

And the same time, while i was waiting for my labor to be applied, many of friends and people i know of, who came to this country at much later time, went to work for small consultancy companies, applied GC and got GC long time back. How ?. because the small companies don't even follow the laws, can apply GCs in RIR (by showing some junk proofs) and they will open a satelite offices in places like maine, wisconsin (just for their employees GCs) and get the labor approved at a faster rate. While we working at big companies wait for labor to be applied by following strict laws.

You tell me what is fair in this country, when it comes to immigration process.

Your situvation could be much worse than me, but that's mainly due to the broken immigration process in country.

I am not taking any offense on your comments. I wish you good luck and i hope your GC will come through soon.
__________________
Sub Labor PD: 8/21/2002, EB2, India
I-140 : RD 09/22/2005, AD 03/01/2006
I-485: RD 09/22/2005, AD 11/07/2006
05/31/2006 : lawyer sent a letter with supporting documents to USCIS for correcting PD on I-140 approval notice. I-140 approval PD shows as 09/22/2005.
09/14/06: received updated I-140 approval notice with correct PD.
Finger Prints/Name check - cleared (according to USCIS letter)

qualified_trash
11-09-2006, 01:53 PM
Well said. These kind of feelings are general for human beings. But thinking and worrying about any problem is not going to fetch you anything. If anyone has problem, then they have to start thinking about a solution. This is help them to overcome the the real problem. Thinking and worrying about it will make the problem wrost.

Every human being is having two virtual circles in his entire life. The inner circle is circle of influence on which you have full control and outer one is circle of concern on which you dont have any control. You cannot change the weather(outer circle). Worrying about how cold or hot is not going to help you, but you can wear adequate clothing(inner circle with your control) to over come it.

So think what you can do with what you have in your control. This will bring peace and happiness in your life and eventually will enable you to overcome big issues in simple way.

Ok now for BASHERS: IF YOU DONT LIKE, PLS IGNORE IT. I should add this in my signature.


from the 7 habits by covey.......... nice!!

http://www.breakoutofthebox.com/circle.htm

sodh
11-10-2006, 02:55 AM
Just my thoughts its okay for companies to use preapproved labor of the enployees who are no more with them ,but what about employees who have worked with them for many years and when the time comes to file the employees I-140, either the the employee is layed off, or they file I-140 application with important documents missing resulting in RFE, no way of knowing whether your experience letters, your evaluation certificate with the evaluators credentials were ever submitted.(Ganda hai per dhanda hai ye).

skp71
11-11-2006, 10:54 AM
I have been waiting for 4.5 years, renewed 4 times EAD/AP, spent more than 8K(wife dosen't work and having 2 kids). If there is no sub labor system, I would have got long back.

One of my friends informed me about immigrationvoice.com few months back, I am EB3 with PD Jan 2003 and currently waiting to file I-485 for last one year. It is frustrating to hear how some of the companies are bypassing and jumping ahead on the line. I thought I get some opinion; I am curious why this isn't being bunged. Although using a pre-approved labor is a legal thing, how much of sagacity does it really have? Within my little 10-12 friend circle I have had atleast FOUR people who got their GC within 8 months through this same company - KFORCE, Rapidigm Inc., utilizing pre-approved labor. It seems this company lures people with a condition that they will process their GC within couple of months, isn't this using the legal system at their business advantage.

What can we do to stop this, it is frustrating to me as I am waiting for close to four years with my GC process and been in the US for 7 years. At the same time, I see people who have been in the US for 2 years has their GC. To me this legal system does not make any sense and is a clear proof of injustice. I am thinking of talking to a legal attorney to see if this makes a justifiable case and if possible file a lawsuit for scrutiny against this company or any company that uses this facility for their benefit. May be I am overreacting and this is the reason I am posting it here to get an opinion, what do you guys think ?

gonecrazyonh4
11-11-2006, 11:49 AM
One of my friends informed me about immigrationvoice.com few months back, I am EB3 with PD Jan 2003 and currently waiting to file I-485 for last one year. It is frustrating to hear how some of the companies are bypassing and jumping ahead on the line. I thought I get some opinion; I am curious why this isn't being bunged. Although using a pre-approved labor is a legal thing, how much of sagacity does it really have? Within my little 10-12 friend circle I have had atleast FOUR people who got their GC within 8 months through this same company - KFORCE, Rapidigm Inc., utilizing pre-approved labor. It seems this company lures people with a condition that they will process their GC within couple of months, isn't this using the legal system at their business advantage.

What can we do to stop this, it is frustrating to me as I am waiting for close to four years with my GC process and been in the US for 7 years. At the same time, I see people who have been in the US for 2 years has their GC. To me this legal system does not make any sense and is a clear proof of injustice. I am thinking of talking to a legal attorney to see if this makes a justifiable case and if possible file a lawsuit for scrutiny against this company or any company that uses this facility for their benefit. May be I am overreacting and this is the reason I am posting it here to get an opinion, what do you guys think ?

I completely agree that Substitute labor is being used is the wrong sense. My husband is now in his 7th year of H1B and I am still on H4.

At the same time our friend who came in 2005 to USA through an Indian company joined Rapidigm in 2005, received a 1999 priority date Labor and received his Green card (& for his wife too) in 8 months time.

This iextremely unfair means of acquiring GC and should be blocked legally.Meanwhile Rapidigm has been acquired by Fujitsu .

imcdude
11-11-2006, 11:54 AM
While Pre-approved labor is ok, the priority date of the original applicant should NOT transfer over to the beneficiary of the substituted labor. The injustice is there.

gonecrazyonh4
11-11-2006, 02:50 PM
While Pre-approved labor is ok, the priority date of the original applicant should NOT transfer over to the beneficiary of the substituted labor. The injustice is there.
yes, I agree, but that is what is happening.With a subsitute labor you get to keep the old PD.

eb3India
11-11-2006, 10:10 PM
I completely agree that Substitute labor is being used is the wrong sense. My husband is now in his 7th year of H1B and I am still on H4.

At the same time our friend who came in 2005 to USA through an Indian company joined Rapidigm in 2005, received a 1999 priority date Labor and received his Green card (& for his wife too) in 8 months time.

This iextremely unfair means of acquiring GC and should be blocked legally.Meanwhile Rapidigm has been acquired by Fujitsu .

simple question, given an opportunity, where someone offer you sub labour with PD prior to 2001 does any one here reject the offer, this is a classic story of "ship of crabs from ...."

we have much bigger fish to fry than worry about few smart crabs getting out of ship.

sub labour is not illegal nor it is a loop hole, itz a simple deal between employer and employee for their own benifit.

letz focus our effort on making new congresss and senate understand our situation and provide some relife thru bills such as SKILL.

sbabunle
11-12-2006, 02:31 AM
Having said all these, let me ask you something?

How many of you wrote to Dept. Of Labor to stop Labor
substitution when they put a comment period for the proposed
removal of Labor Sub?

Everybody knows that the system is broken. The whole point
is what are we doing to fix it? This is a foriegn land. So we have to
work thrice of 4 times harder to change the system in place. Are we
doing that?

humdesi
11-12-2006, 06:17 PM
DOL cannot do anything about labor sub. USCIS must stop using old PD. FOr this, we need to appeal to USCIS. Do you know who to address the letter?


Having said all these, let me ask you something?

How many of you wrote to Dept. Of Labor to stop Labor
substitution when they put a comment period for the proposed
removal of Labor Sub?

Everybody knows that the system is broken. The whole point
is what are we doing to fix it? This is a foriegn land. So we have to
work thrice of 4 times harder to change the system in place. Are we
doing that?

qualified_trash
11-12-2006, 07:40 PM
everyone on this thread must ask ourselves this question:

My HR manager has told me that there will be a labor available which I may be able to use to gain a better PD and get my GC in record time. Do I go for it?

If your answer to the above question is NO, may I suggest you have your head examined.........

If your answer to the above question is YES, may I suggest that you do not worry too much about LC substitution.

I personally would never pass up a chance at a pre-approved labor and I bear no ill will or grudge against those who have benefited from the same. This country and world is large enough for all to coexist and do well........

As for the people who have benefited, there is something to be said about being in the right place at right time.......

anilsal
11-13-2006, 12:57 AM
As for the people who have benefited, there is something to be said about being in the right place at right time.......

Curious as to how many of them will have negative feelings towards CIR, SKIL or H1B quota increase. I am sure the percentage will be high.

Lots of big companies have made use of this labor substitution.

humdesi
11-16-2006, 10:29 PM
DOL cannot do anything about labor sub. USCIS must stop using old PD. FOr this, we need to appeal to USCIS. Do you know who to address the letter?

We should all contact the ombudsman. Write to him TODAY.
Explain that labor substitution and PD porting is evil because it lets people unfairly get ahead in line. Otherwise EB2 will also soon retrogress to EB3 level.

Here's the link:

http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/structure/editorial_0501.shtm

Write today!

logiclife
01-23-2007, 05:32 PM
http://news.mainetoday.com/updates/008785.html

NEWARK, N.J. - A business owner from India was sentenced Monday to 20 months in federal prison for helping hundreds of immigrants live and work illegally in New Jersey and elsewhere in the United States.

Narendra Mandalapa must also forfeit $5.7 million and two luxury cars - deemed to be proceeds of his crimes - and pay a $25,000 fine, under the penalties imposed by U.S. District Judge Dickinson R. Debevoise.

Mandalapa, 36, was owner and president of Cybersoftec Inc., a business consulting firm based in Edison in 2004 and 2005.
Cybersoftec also claimed offices in Portland, Maine, and
in New Hampshire, and obtained more than 150 certifications in the two states for temporary work visas in 2004 and 2005 through the U.S. Department of Labor, the Portland Press Herald reported.

Cybersoftec, according to Maine Department of Labor records, also filed about 50 labor-certification applications in Maine for green cards, which allow foreigners to live and work in the U.S. indefinitely.

Mandalapa had pleaded guilty to immigration fraud, admitting that he got up to $22,000 from immigrants to file fraudulent documents. Those included I-140s, which are petitions for an alien worker to become a lawful U.S. resident.

Mandalapa has been in custody since his arrest Nov. 3, 2005. His lawyer, Bruno Bier, said Mandalapa will get credit for his 14 months of confinement and will spend about six months in prison before he will likely face deportation proceedings.

None of the indictments on 29 counts of immigration fraud, money laundering and mail fraud related to his applications for green cards were linked to activities in Maine. Mandalapa pleaded guilty to one count as part of a plea bargain.

Bier said Cybersoftec is no longer in business.

Our message to Narendra "Nick" Mandalapa : Enjoy prison. Maybe on the inside, you can sell contraband items just like on the outside you sold approved labor certs.

--------------------------------------

Like someone said on the news article thread, the only difference between this guy and other desi companies (Desi means "of Indian origin") is that this guy got caught, while hundreds of other companies still sell approved labor certs with earlier priority dates.

And all this illegal trade is much to the delight of AILA, who is pushing hard to keep labor substitution alive.

What's in it for AILA? : Additional business of labor substitution. Now, for a few extra pennies, AILA would not hesitate to screw thousands of GC applicants waiting in line and enable the "Cutting in line" that happens due to labor substitution.

So if you think AILA is a friend of immigrants (legal or illegal), think again. Its a friend of $$$. And there is nothing wrong with that. Everyone pursues self-interest. That is what AILA is doing. But dont misunderstand AILA as a champion of immigrants (legal or illegal). It represents immigration lawyers, not immigrants. On a rare occassion, the interests overlap, and that's good. But on many issues, AILA has a history of being very very employer friendly as far as immigration law is concerned, even if it comes at the cost of employees(immigrants).

satishku_2000
01-23-2007, 05:47 PM
Hey

I agree with you guys that he deservs much more stricter sentence.

Some of the guys work against us because we are sound different and look different. So dont get into that mode ...



These kind of small statements can become a big issue particularly in a public forum like this.

Simple suggestion and peace , I dont mean to offend any one ...

485Mbe4001
01-23-2007, 05:50 PM
what happens to the people who got their GC's using labor from this guys company? Hopefully they are not affected, it will be sad to see their lives in trouble because of him.

logiclife
01-23-2007, 05:51 PM
--thanks...edited my comments per your suggestion - logiclife

satishku_2000
01-23-2007, 05:58 PM
I appreciate that, I dont want IV to be dragged into any unnecessary controversy ..

vparam
01-23-2007, 06:16 PM
http://news.mainetoday.com/updates/008785.html



Our message to Narendra "Nick" Mandalapa : Enjoy prison. Maybe on the inside, you can sell contraband items just like on the outside you sold approved labor certs.

--------------------------------------

Like someone said on the news article thread, the only difference between this guy and other desi companies (Desi means "of Indian origin") is that this guy got caught, while hundreds of other companies still sell approved labor certs with earlier priority dates.

And all this illegal trade is much to the delight of AILA, who is pushing hard to keep labor substitution alive.

What's in it for AILA? : Additional business of labor substitution. Now, for a few extra pennies, AILA would not hesitate to screw thousands of GC applicants waiting in line and enable the "Cutting in line" that happens due to labor substitution.

So if you think AILA is a friend of immigrants (legal or illegal), think again. Its a friend of $$$. And there is nothing wrong with that. Everyone pursues self-interest. That is what AILA is doing. But dont misunderstand AILA as a champion of immigrants (legal or illegal). It represents immigration lawyers, not immigrants. On a rare occassion, the interests overlap, and that's good. But on many issues, AILA has a history of being very very employer friendly as far as immigration law is concerned, even if it comes at the cost of employees(immigrants).
Logiclife -
I would not say substitution of labor is totally wrong. I left my previous company after having waited for a labor over 2 years and helped find a suitable candidate, who also had the same level of education and experiance and was an exact replacement for me (Sr.Program Manager -designation). My (old) company which is fortune 100 company was not ware of this substitution business till i told them they should use it when they spent money filing it for me and i am not using it. while consulting companies also use it when the original person left and they have someone else to fill in that role..

The concept becomes wrong when it sold and not really used for a replacement and i think those guys have to be identified like Narendra Mandalapa and punished.

logiclife
01-23-2007, 06:18 PM
what happens to the people who got their GC's using labor from this guys company? Hopefully they are not affected, it will be sad to see their lives in trouble because of him.

They will be affected. If you pay cash $20,000 to buy an approved labor, you are breaking that law too, and at the minimum, they would be reapplying for GC again, at the maximum, deportation, for breaking immigration laws.

In fact, if your immigration case was approved with fraudulent information/documents unbeknownst to you and if you employer was alone in the fraud, even then the approved petition(whether its H1, labor, 140, 485) would be voided by USCIS.

What is really frustrating is that backlog centers keep approving labors from very early priority dates and these employers keep responding to 45 day letters saying that "Yes" they want to proceed with labor even though the employee would have left a long time ago. And they do it with the intention of either selling it for cash or using it as an incentive to hire a person on a lower-than-market salary. That it is one of the reasons why PDs are not moving forward...all these old old labors are being recycled into the system.

And this was cybersoftec was in Edison NJ. I wouldnt be surprised if you can find a dozen companies doing this within 1 mile radius of this guy in Edison NJ. No offense meant to NJ or the township of Edison. But boy that place reeks with stinking desi employers.

The only thing that has stopped since Nick Mandalappa was caught is that they've stopped selling it on sulekha.com. If he hadnt been caught, then these guys would be selling approved labors on eBay by now.

logiclife
01-23-2007, 06:24 PM
Logiclife -
I would not say substitution of labor is totally wrong. I left my previous company after having waited for a labor over 2 years and helped find a suitable candidate, who also had the same level of education and experiance and was an exact replacement for me (Sr.Program Manager -designation). My (old) company which is fortune 100 company was not ware of this substitution business till i told them they should use it when they spent money filing it for me and i am not using it. while consulting companies also use it when the original person left and they have someone else to fill in that role..

The concept becomes wrong when it sold and not really used for a replacement and i think those guys have to be identified like Narendra Mandalapa and punished.

I am talking about Desi bodyshops and not fortune 500 companies. This law or regulation of DOL causes more harm than good. For the good it does to 5% employers, it does harm to thousands of applicants whose dates are not becoming current because of people cutting in line by buying the approved labor certs. If there is a need for companies to save money by going for substituted labor, then maybe the DOL and USCIS should work out to make the priority date of substitution case same as the 140 date and not the labor filing date. The day that happens, this underground sale of approved labor certs will stop.

GCwaitforever
01-23-2007, 06:34 PM
If there is a need for companies to save money by going for substituted labor, then maybe the DOL and USCIS should work out to make the priority date of substitution case same as the 140 date and not the labor filing date.

I am not sure of validity of substitution labor at all. When the original labor petition was applied, they could not find suitable candidates and hence they had to approve the labor. Fine. What about at the time of labor substitution? They ought to check the labor market again for a suitable candidate and only after confirming that there are not any candidates, the substitution labor should be approved with priority date of the substitution labor filing, not the original priority date. This will make labor substitution difficult for Desi companies and keeps it fair for everybody - immigrants, local candidates.

STAmisha
01-23-2007, 07:01 PM
Mandalla ************

Rot in hell. Rot in prison. Because of bastards like you, all of the immigrant community is suffering. Enjoy your prison

mchundi
01-23-2007, 07:04 PM
I personally know a guy who used Nick's services. Bottomline, his 485 was rejected as Nick sold the same labor to other guys as well. As for him, spend some time on EAD and now he is back on H1. What happens to his VISA number. Returns to the pool? Which pool? Or is it lost as the VISA number was used from last year's quota.

logiclife
01-23-2007, 07:06 PM
Sorry, we cannot allow profanity here even if it has a couple of ** in it.

Rest assured, I feel the same way. 18 months prison time is nothing for the amount of damage that these desi employer maggots are doing to everyone. It should be atleast 5 years so that he can have time to think about these things.

user2005
01-23-2007, 07:11 PM
I personally know a guy who used Nick's services. Bottomline, his 485 was rejected as Nick sold the same labor to other guys as well. As for him, spend some time on EAD and now he is back on H1. What happens to his VISA number. Returns to the pool? Which pool? Or is it lost as the VISA number was used from last year's quota.

Can they use same LC for more than one I-140?
Trying to understand damage done by LC substitution scams.

days_go_by
01-23-2007, 07:11 PM
not all cases approved by DOL are fraud, some cases are really genuine, I have waited over 5 years for labor, and I know a bunch of other people too who have genuinely waited.
But I agree most of frauds, I know of friends who bought and got Green Cards within a few months. checkout this thread .

http://immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?p=1596562#post1596562

it's not like DOL is not aware of it, they know it, they have created an industry around it. I don't think they will ban labor subst, they would rather add a transfer fee and make more money on it.

mchundi
01-23-2007, 07:41 PM
Can they use same LC for more than one I-140?
Trying to understand damage done by LC substitution scams.
My understanding is they can and they do that. U will only know when the AOS is taken up for processing. In this case there were 5 of them on the same labor. Even 140 gets approved, but not 485. I really wud like to know how VISA numbers get handled in these cases.
I know several guys who took this path. Of them only one was a genuine case. All others were some kind of deals. Only one of them had a bad deal(Thanks to Mandalapa). Others r still happy with their EAD's.
I mean this is a widespread practice. I situations like now when we have so few VISA numbers it is unfortunate one for us if those VISA numbers r lost.

perm2gc
01-23-2007, 08:28 PM
Finally he got what he deserved..I wish that US won't deport him..He should spend rest of his life in Federal Prison only.If he goes back to india(AP)..he will open one more company and do the same things.His uncle is famous telugu actor and was a member of parliament also..so he will get all the help he needs.I pray to god that he should be in US federal Prision for rest of his life...

amulchandra
01-23-2007, 10:29 PM
This is old link but talks about immigration fraud by some consulting firms.

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/news/immigration/060924immigmain.html

amulchandra

pappu
01-24-2007, 01:16 AM
not just 5 years,
make it a retrogressed date for coming out of prison for such people. They will understand what retrogression is and will wait endlesslessly for their date of freedom to become current.:)
stay in jail forever and when the date becomes current ... go back to the home country empty handed to start all over again.

btw, everyone filing GCs from small companies need to be very careful. Some members are asking about company A or B on the forum these days. You need to directly ask the employer all these questions before joiniing them. Sometimes even after approval of 140 or even till you get the actual GC your application can be denied for GC if:
- The company is found to be fraud/ involved in any fruad by USCS or DOL
- the company has excess GC applications and cannot show ability to pay (company profitability per year) for all of them. Small companies typically may be involved in wrongh tax practices by hiding their actual profits. The company may have filed several GC applications and sometimes initial applications may get approved but later can be denied. IN that case USCIS can also deny all previously approved applications.
- The company is H1B dependent. (more H1Bs . There is a percentage defined by USCIS). Ths will raise red flags in their system.
- The applicant is related to the owner of the company. This also can be a reason for denial and red flagging of a company for all other applicants.
- Physical location and legitimacy of the company. In the past some applicants applied through companies in Maine even though they were not working in Maine. This was to get faster LCs before the Perm process started. Sometimes such cases also raises doubts.

Be careful with every step you take. GC application is very important and you do not want to take such risks and regret later.

sodh
01-24-2007, 01:23 AM
I wish they put him in a cell where his mates are, do I have to elaborate, the moderator will delete my post.

greatguy
01-24-2007, 11:07 AM
I think, it is too light a sentence for the crook

boreal
01-24-2007, 01:26 PM
I think, it is too light a sentence for the crook

hehehe, i dont think the sentence is too light - the US Prison system has so many jokes about the kinds of characters inside them...Hope this mandalapa guy gets a 'great' roomie - Once he comes out he would think twice about 'screwing' genuine GC applicants then - know what i mean??!!!!

logiclife
01-24-2007, 01:29 PM
hehehe, i dont think the sentence is too light - the US Prison system has so many jokes about the kinds of characters inside them...Hope this mandalapa guy gets a 'great' roomie - Once he comes out he would think twice about 'screwing' genuine GC applicants then - know what i mean??!!!!

He is going to India after prison. The paper says he is being deported after he gets out of prison.

So he wont be touching anyone's GC application ever.

Dalai Lama
01-24-2007, 02:14 PM
He must had already saved lot of money in India, he will live like a king after 20 months.
He should get 20 years of prison.

Dalai lama from Tibbet

Munna Bhai
01-26-2007, 09:01 AM
Hello,

My I-140 is approved and I have a PD of Feb 2006.

One of my colleague whose job description is little different then mine has a PD of Sep 2003 and his Labour got approved but he left the company.

So is there anyway his approved labor is useful to me. What are the ifs,buts etc.
----------------
I changed your thread title. when you start a new thread make your thread title descriptive for all members to easily sift through threads- Admin

Munna Bhai
01-26-2007, 09:34 AM
Hello,

My I-140 is approved and I have a PD of Feb 2006.

One of my colleague whose job description is little different then mine has a PD of Sep 2003 and his Labour got approved but he left the company.

So is there anyway his approved labor is useful to me. What are the ifs,buts etc.
----------------
I changed your thread title. when you start a new thread make your thread title descriptive for all members to easily sift through threads, else your thread will be closed or deleted. Thanks for understanding- Admin

Thanks Pappu. Is this called Labour substitution? I don't know that term.Any input regarding this is greatly appreciated.

msyedy
01-26-2007, 12:20 PM
Thanks Pappu. Is this called Labour substitution? I don't know that term.Any input regarding this is greatly appreciated.

Labor substitution is not encouraged by INS any more, but is still possible.
Use the old labor and file for premium I-140. If approved you can use that priority date.

Simple as that, premium result will be in 15 days.

Best of luck.... Though I dont encourage this, and I am against this because people are just moving ahead which is not a fair.

But nowadays.with this retrogression and we fighting for our provisions I have become more stable and want any of my efforts to help anyone and this is making me happy/

dpuranik
01-26-2007, 03:11 PM
You can not apply I-140 Premium Processing if you are doing Labor substitution.

http://www.murthy.com/news/n_eb3140.html

Saralayar
01-27-2007, 01:45 PM
DPuranik,
You have provided a old URL link. Afterwards, the I-140 Premium is extended to all categories including labor substitution cases. Infact, Murthy website also updated that. If you are not sure, do some research on that topic and then post your views.

shruthi07
01-27-2007, 02:00 PM
Saralayar,

You are right.

Cases Not Allowed for I-140 Premium Processing -

1. EB1 (Extraordinary Ability and Multinational Executive or Transferee)

2. EB2 (National Interest Waiver)

HTH

Shruthi07

sodh
01-27-2007, 09:55 PM
Can please somebody reply, is this a non profit organisation or everytime somebody ask's some innocent question he is bombarded with counter questions like have you contributed, I can understand the frustations when there are freebee's but please everybody has his limitations,this reminds of bania's in mumbai you will get your your grocerries only if you have paid your previous debt's. Please don't force anybody, this makes every core members feel cheap, if somebody has to contribute he will contribute out of guilt out, of appreciation,out of obligation, we have not forgotten our dharma that is to help anybody that helps us.

invincibleasian
01-27-2007, 10:38 PM
Go for it! Life itself is not fair!!

msyedy
01-27-2007, 11:39 PM
Can please somebody reply, is this a non profit organisation or everytime somebody ask's some innocent question he is bombarded with counter questions like have you contributed, I can understand the frustations when there are freebee's but please everybody has his limitations,this reminds of bania's in mumbai you will get your your grocerries only if you have paid your previous debt's. Please don't force anybody, this makes every core members feel cheap, if somebody has to contribute he will contribute out of guilt out, of appreciation,out of obligation, we have not forgotten our dharma that is to help anybody that helps us.

Ignore any posts that conveys a message forcing anyone to contribute. IV core has never ever forced anyone to contribute. IV core does not have time to reply to these kind of messages.

Please Ignore these messages.

tdasara
01-28-2007, 01:24 AM
http://classifieds.sulekha.com/clad.aspx?cid=1493579&nma=BOM

pappu
01-28-2007, 06:12 AM
Such people give a bad name to high skilled immigrants. They give fodder to anti immigrants to talk against H1Bs and greencard applicants by talking about abuses and exploitation.
IV is against any kind of breaking of the law and condemn such people. I'm sure DOL is watching Sulekha website since this is the place where such ads have been posted and reported.

pappu
01-28-2007, 09:28 AM
I did not understand the meaning of this add. Please explain. Thanks!
Such companies sell pre-approved labor certificates for several thousand dollars (I have heard 20K) and use it as a means to lure employees. Their LCs have very early priority dates and H1Bs are tempted to apply for such jobs. By mentioning LCs in their ads, they are also calling H1Bs to apply rather than being an equal opportunity employer for all people (including US citizens). All this gives a bad name for H1Bs and the greencard process. Anti immigrants use it against us in their campaign.

ksircar
01-28-2007, 09:43 AM
We should not discuss this type of advertisements in this forum, we are giving them indirect publicity.

vgayalu
01-28-2007, 10:02 AM
This thead is not useful for people like us please close it.

And I beg not to create any more threads which unpopulars us.
we are not supportng those kind of illegal business. we are against to those things.

alterego
01-28-2007, 10:14 AM
USCIS should create a way of reporting such abuses, with protection to those who report it.

This is one area I think most people can agree upon. It might seem at first glance to be a victimless crime, but we clearly know otherwise.

This just goes to show how lopsided EB immigration is in favour of the employer. When companies without much reputation wantonly disregard the rules, and blatantly advertise like this, the USCIS/US gov't ought to reconsider whether they are deserving of such power. If not because such practices hurt those like us, then because they hurt US workers as well.

The solution however is not to disband the entire H1b system/EB greencard system as the anti immigrants want but to modify the rules surrounding it. I think most fair minded people can agree that this is needed now.

alisa
01-28-2007, 12:22 PM
Is this the reason the PDs don't move forward?
How many pre-approved labors are there?
I mean, if they got hundreds of thousands of pre-approved labors, the PDs will not more for a long long time......

Such companies sell pre-approved labor certificates for several thousand dollars (I have heard 20K) and use it as a means to lure employees. Their LCs have very early priority dates and H1Bs are tempted to apply for such jobs. By mentioning LCs in their ads, they are also calling H1Bs to apply rather than being an equal opportunity employer for all people (including US citizens). All this gives a bad name for H1Bs and the greencard process. Anti immigrants use it against us in their campaign.

viva
01-28-2007, 02:57 PM
I think my previous question asking the poster of the question to contribute was deleted by the moderator.

It is a valid request to ask the poster of the question to contribute. If the person is coming on this site hoping to get a benefit from the members, then they must be willing to help out the organization too. I believe in the saying ," You scratch my back, I scratch yours."

There is no force involved here; it is just persuasion in the right direction. We will never reach our contribution goals if all people continue to get answers without contributing to the organization in return.

Core team- We should display a pop-ad for any new member signing up to IV asking them if they want to contribute. We need to get aggressive. This is no time to be passive.

GC08
01-28-2007, 05:09 PM
:mad: They should stop the so called substitution.

go_guy123
01-28-2007, 05:11 PM
:mad: They should stop the so called substitution.

USCIS was trying to abolish this substitution. The lawyer lobby opposed it.
There are too many well funded vested interest groups, so we are getting screwed. I have no hope/expections of GC relief...only more H1B quota making things worse.

sodh
01-28-2007, 08:28 PM
Thanks for the clarification msyedy, and your valuable time.

logiclife
01-29-2007, 01:21 AM
How do lawyers benefit from it? Thanks.

Immigration lawyers have tendency to side with employers, not employees on the policies of legal skilled immigration. That's one reason.

Another reason, even simpler is that labor substitution means extra business.

pappu
01-29-2007, 01:22 AM
Thanks to everyone for taking an active role in the funding drive. It is always a frustrating experience every time we want to raise funds. In our overzealousness sometimes we also hurt the effort by being too harsh on people who are not contributing. We do not wish to encourage any finger pointing. Members start asking all kinds of questions on the forum and kill the initiative thereby hurting the organization and ultimately themselves. At this time we are no longer going to ask for funds on the forum and will continue the IV effort with what we have from the contributions members have made. Members who feel they wish to contribute will contribute if they feel for the cause in their heart. Admins have decided to close all such threads so that we can focus on the other IV work rather than solving disputes between members and making sure no anonymous member is hurting other anonymous member’s feelings.

viva
01-29-2007, 03:51 AM
pappu- i got the message. sorry, if i became overzealous. just wanted to help iv...

i will not raise any more questions asking non-contributing members to contribute.


go iv .....go core team!

peer123
02-04-2007, 09:36 AM
:(

http://www.murthy.com/nflash/nf_020207.html

chanduv23
02-04-2007, 10:10 AM
:(

http://www.murthy.com/nflash/nf_020207.html

Looks like the final version may be different and may have some loopholes to satisfy AILA and employer lobby.

sledge_hammer
02-04-2007, 11:30 AM
:(

http://www.murthy.com/nflash/nf_020207.html


There is already a thread that addresses this issue -

http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3073

Subst_labor
03-16-2007, 01:45 PM
hi All,

Can someone give me advice on this:

I have 4 yrs Bachelors + 6.5 yrs of IT exp. i am being offered a Pre- approved labor(EB3-PD-Nov.2003), which was filed for someone with a condition-Bachelors + 4 years exp., at the time of filing.
i graduated in June 2000, so i am about 1 year short for the 2003 PD. However i did some part time work during college in India and the lawyer says if i can get exp. letter from that company on a letter head, that should suffice.
i am concerned if that India exp. during graduation will work or not.
Has anyone faced a situation like this?
the (part time exp)company was very small, can this be risky? what do you guys think?

Thanks.

ns007
03-16-2007, 01:52 PM
If the prior experience was related to your field, then I don't see why not. You may want to hurry because if USIS comes with 45-day labor expiration rule soon (which they may), you may not be able to use the prior approved labor.

hi All,

Can someone give me advice on this:

I have 4 yrs Bachelors + 6.5 yrs of IT exp. i am being offered a Pre- approved labor(EB3-PD-Nov.2003), which was filed for someone with a condition-Bachelors + 4 years exp., at the time of filing.
i graduated in June 2000, so i am about 1 year short for the 2003 PD. However i did some part time work during college in India and the lawyer says if i can get exp. letter from that company on a letter head, that should suffice.
i am concerned if that India exp. during graduation will work or not.
Has anyone faced a situation like this?
the (part time exp)company was very small, can this be risky? what do you guys think?

Thanks.

riva2005
03-16-2007, 02:05 PM
There are many more Nick Mandallapas out there selling labor certs to highest bidders for GC.

Nick Mandallapa went to prison, but others are still out there doing it coz most likely, the Dept of labor is not equipped to catch all the labor sales.

chanduv23
03-16-2007, 02:07 PM
Verify with another lawyer also, basically your experience starts only after you graduate (after getting your degree and not after finishing college ie say you completed ur degree in may 2000 and recieved your degree in Dec 2000, your experience prior to Dec 2000 may not count)

Do verify this with a good lawyer.

Subst_labor
03-16-2007, 02:17 PM
i am not paying anything, its a decent company from NJ. the only thing i am concerned about is that this experience was when i was IN college and it was a really small company (part time thing..)

Subst_labor
03-16-2007, 02:21 PM
Verify with another lawyer also, basically your experience starts only after you graduate (after getting your degree and not after finishing college ie say you completed ur degree in may 2000 and recieved your degree in Dec 2000, your experience prior to Dec 2000 may not count)

Do verify this with a good lawyer.

yeah, i know this thing is dicey! thanks for your advice, need to look for another lawyer now..

Subst_labor
03-16-2007, 02:24 PM
If the prior experience was related to your field, then I don't see why not. You may want to hurry because if USIS comes with 45-day labor expiration rule soon (which they may), you may not be able to use the prior approved labor.

arent you in conflict with chanduv23's reply? i am stuck between both of the ideas:) not worried about the bill, its not a law yet..

senthil1
03-16-2007, 02:24 PM
It depends on INS. If they notice the overlap between study and experience and they can send RFE. If you send explanation to RFE then it is upto INS to accept or reject. If thy doo not notice then no problem.Some people in INS have some idea about fake experience certificates in India. It is easy to get experience certificate even if you do not work. You can get idea by analysing similar situation.


QUOTE=Subst_labor]i am not paying anything, its a decent company from NJ. the only thing i am concerned about is that this experience was when i was IN college and it was a really small company (part time thing..)[/QUOTE]

don_don
03-16-2007, 02:28 PM
Are you from India,,if yes, think again,,,the EB3 2003 PD may not buy u much,,u may be well know trying to go for perm and 140 with current EB2...eb3 for india is a black hole,,,i hope u know what a black hole is,,,its kinda dangerous!!

chanduv23
03-16-2007, 03:05 PM
Are you from India,,if yes, think again,,,the EB3 2003 PD may not buy u much,,u may be well know trying to go for perm and 140 with current EB2...eb3 for india is a black hole,,,i hope u know what a black hole is,,,its kinda dangerous!!

Yes, EB3 2003 is of no use except for h1b extensions, so consider taking the job only if you see something good other than a sub labor

nixstor
03-16-2007, 04:13 PM
Unfortunately many companies are trying to woo people ignorant of retrogression and how severe retrogression is using these 2003 EB3 labor. As a matter of fact Nov 2002 EB3 labor might be of no use as well. Previously they used to ask for money, now its just the split.

glus
03-17-2007, 11:24 AM
Subst_labor, you became an annonymous member today only to post this question. I am sure you must be a regular member of IV but created a new profile just for this question.

Why don't you tell us how much you bought your labor for? Show us a proof that you have not bought it.

I think I made a mistake of answering your post and apologize for that to all members. I also urge people not to answer anyone with substitute labor on this forum.

such people cut in line in front of us and don't even bother paying money to IV. Why should we give them free advice. If they can spend money buying labor for 20K they can spend hundred dollars and consult a lawyer and ask their question. It is with such mentaility they are brought up with in their country- Currption and getting things done with money. But never paying anyone for a just cause. In my country people contribute only when they fear god in temples, for medical treatment or to astrologers!!


I also urge moderators to close such threads on this forum whenever someone is diagnosed with a substitute labor cancer. Yes it is a cancer that is worsening retrogression further.

At least on this forum we can have the resolve to fight such people who are hurting most of us.

Now if someone argues with me on this post, then it will mean that either that person has himself bought a substitute labor or is looking for one. So don't even bother because a lot of members after reading this post will come hard on people who are ok with substitute labor on this forum.

janakp,
I do not get it what's your problem someone is asking for advise with his/hers labor subs. As far as I can see it you should not ask personal questions such as "tell us how much you paid" etc. I don't think it is your business. A person asked for advise, so if you can help him, why don't you do it? Labor Substitution is still LEGAL and your assumption that everyone buys labor does not necessarily must be true. Think about it.

glus
03-17-2007, 11:33 AM
hi All,

Can someone give me advice on this:

I have 4 yrs Bachelors + 6.5 yrs of IT exp. i am being offered a Pre- approved labor(EB3-PD-Nov.2003), which was filed for someone with a condition-Bachelors + 4 years exp., at the time of filing.
i graduated in June 2000, so i am about 1 year short for the 2003 PD. However i did some part time work during college in India and the lawyer says if i can get exp. letter from that company on a letter head, that should suffice.
i am concerned if that India exp. during graduation will work or not.
Has anyone faced a situation like this?
the (part time exp)company was very small, can this be risky? what do you guys think?

Thanks.
I am not sure if you cannot used experience gained before / during college. I think it all depends on the LC requirements. I know many people who used experience gained before gaining their degrees, and there were no issues. However, I do not know if their LCs specified "post-degree experience, or just experience." I would speak to another lawyer to see if he tells you the same story as your current lawyer. You could send this question to Susan Henner. She is the attorney giving us free advise. The the home page for information on how to send her a question.

Regards,

ilwaiting
03-17-2007, 11:33 AM
The sooner LC substitution goes away the lesser we have to deal with such questions. And the sooner we would get our green cards.



hi All,

Can someone give me advice on this:

I have 4 yrs Bachelors + 6.5 yrs of IT exp. i am being offered a Pre- approved labor(EB3-PD-Nov.2003), which was filed for someone with a condition-Bachelors + 4 years exp., at the time of filing.
i graduated in June 2000, so i am about 1 year short for the 2003 PD. However i did some part time work during college in India and the lawyer says if i can get exp. letter from that company on a letter head, that should suffice.
i am concerned if that India exp. during graduation will work or not.
Has anyone faced a situation like this?
the (part time exp)company was very small, can this be risky? what do you guys think?

Thanks.

Saralayar
03-17-2007, 11:33 AM
Asking such things are not correct. Any how labor substitution is not happening much and individuals with real issues like kids going to the final years in school etc., are finaly deciding and trying to take this risk.

go_guy123
03-17-2007, 12:13 PM
such people cut in line in front of us and don't even bother paying money to IV. Why should we give them free advice. If they can spend money buying labor for 20K they can spend hundred dollars and consult a lawyer and ask their question. It is with such mentaility they are brought up with in their country- Currption and getting things done with money. But never paying anyone for a just cause. In my country people contribute only when they fear god in temples, for medical treatment or to astrologers!!

At least on this forum we can have the resolve to fight such people who are hurting most of us.



Good that DOL/USCIS is getting rid of labor selling by voiding after 45 days
( in the final rule that might be raised a bit ...to 90days ...which is justified and reasonable)

Subst_labor
03-17-2007, 11:32 PM
Subst_labor, you became an annonymous member today only to post this question. I am sure you must be a regular member of IV but created a new profile just for this question.

Why don't you tell us how much you bought your labor for? Show us a proof that you have not bought it.

I think I made a mistake of answering your post and apologize for that to all members. I also urge people not to answer anyone with substitute labor on this forum.

such people cut in line in front of us and don't even bother paying money to IV. Why should we give them free advice. If they can spend money buying labor for 20K they can spend hundred dollars and consult a lawyer and ask their question. It is with such mentaility they are brought up with in their country- Currption and getting things done with money. But never paying anyone for a just cause. In my country people contribute only when they fear god in temples, for medical treatment or to astrologers!!


I also urge moderators to close such threads on this forum whenever someone is diagnosed with a substitute labor cancer. Yes it is a cancer that is worsening retrogression further.

At least on this forum we can have the resolve to fight such people who are hurting most of us.

Now if someone argues with me on this post, then it will mean that either that person has himself bought a substitute labor or is looking for one. So don't even bother because a lot of members after reading this post will come hard on people who are ok with substitute labor on this forum.

Mr. Janak,
Do you understand English? First of all, i had mentioned, i am BEING offered, meaning i havent gone for the labor yet and even if i do there will be no buying or selling involved.
Second of all, i am sick and tired of stereotype Indians like you, who ASSUME everything without knowing anything and come out with your own theories from the bizzarro world [i know, pathetic loosers like to vent at any and every opportunities they get. Spare me your crap, if u dont know anything and cant help, then just stay quiet.]

Subst_labor
03-18-2007, 12:07 AM
Please do not use offensive language. Despite our disagreements we must be mature in our language. I request you to please edit your post. Moderators please delete any offensive posts on the thread since this issue will ruffle some feathers of people who are buying labor substitution. Nobody will own on the forum, because they know majority will oppose them.
There was one more person beciskillingme and he used to preach morality on this forum and how people need to be respectful and polite. I caught him redhanded in one his posts about labor substitution and he ran away from the forum. Now he is preaching somewhere else. I will highlight this issue more and more for awareness because it is hurting all of us. It is also encouraging exploitation by employers and this cancer needs to be stopped asap.

well if you feel offended, i am ready to offer my apologies. are you ready to take back your baseless accusations-that got me started up in the first place.

Subst_labor
03-18-2007, 12:09 AM
well if you feel offended, i am ready to offer my apologies. are you ready to take back your baseless accusations-that got me started up in the first place.

BTW, i dont even know what IV is??

senthil1
03-18-2007, 12:15 PM
You are using labor substitution and also trying to use Part time work done by you in the college. Think yourself it is correct or not. I am sure it is the mistake of company. Many people in the forum are having 10 years of experience but waiting so long. So the the frustration is acceptable.

Labor substitution is not correct and injustice to those who are waiting for long time even if it is not sold. Legally it may be correct but this practice must be abolished. Only less than 10% of labor substitutions are genueine and others are causing delays to those who are waiting long time.Companies especially consulting companies are using every loophole in the immigration to make money. For example when there is no H1b they are bringing by L1 eventhough that position is not eligible for L1. Actually american system is Law to monitor companies and indivdual are so liberal and expected to follow Ethics. But nowadays in immigration they are trying to find every loophole in the immigration to increase the revenues of Company.


Mr. Janak,
Do you understand English? First of all, i had mentioned, i am BEING offered, meaning i havent gone for the labor yet and even if i do there will be no buying or selling involved.
Second of all, i am sick and tired of stereotype Indians like you, who ASSUME everything without knowing anything and come out with your own theories from the bizzarro world [i know, pathetic loosers like to vent at any and every opportunities they get. Spare me your crap, if u dont know anything and cant help, then just stay quiet.]

xbohdpukc
03-18-2007, 01:57 PM
Get a lawyer to answer your questions, they are beyond any competency floating around these forums.

And don't listen to all this venting frustration. If you can get yourself a better deal within the limits of the current law -- go for it, and let everyone else burn in hell :)

ItIsNotFunny
03-18-2007, 03:59 PM
How much are you paying to get the pre-approved labor? The law to ban it is coming soon. So you may have to do it fast.

Thats true. By the way, I saw Janak saying somewhere that labor substituion should be banned. Its nice to see that he changed his mind. Of course I do believe that it should not be misused, sometimes it saves your life here which is more important if you are with family and trying to settle down here.

Anyway, before OMB approved substitution ban, file ASAP.

sodh
03-18-2007, 04:39 PM
Can somebody delete the threads where there is a question of sub. labor, I thought we are an organisation trying to reduce the backlog and not to advice how to increase it .

sodh
03-19-2007, 01:42 PM
why do you think labor substitution would increase the backlog?
My company cancelled my labor process the day I resigned, tell me which big reputed company responded to a 45 day letter even when the candidate was not working with them, so that leaves us with companies like Cybersoft who filed multiple I-140 on one labor approval or there are people who are running parallel processes just to be safe and they are buying the sub. labor,so now even if the companies intention's are good,filling I-140 multiple times creates backlog in the service centers and then it is up to your fate if your file is picked up in the numerical order, in concurrent filling it was a race who got the the GC first the original beneficiary or the person who paid price for the same labor. Who are the people opposing substitution ban or the 45 day rule if you find them you will get your answers.

satyasaich
03-19-2007, 04:06 PM
For the record, when i left one of the Big 5, they still answered for 45 day letter, LC was approved, used for someone else (in Feb/07) who is in need.
How do i know? it's very simple. There were 63 LCs pending in Philadephia BEC, which are EB2s with a priority dates in Jan / Feb2002. Some of my colleagues who were with the same company already filed 140+485 last month.
Since this is a public forum, i can not give the name of the company
My company cancelled my labor process the day I resigned, tell me which big reputed company responded to a 45 day letter even when the candidate was not working with them, so that leaves us with companies like Cybersoft who filed multiple I-140 on one labor approval or there are people who are running parallel processes just to be safe and they are buying the sub. labor,so now even if the companies intention's are good,filling I-140 multiple times creates backlog in the service centers and then it is up to your fate if your file is picked up in the numerical order, in concurrent filling it was a race who got the the GC first the original beneficiary or the person who paid price for the same labor. Who are the people opposing substitution ban or the 45 day rule if you find them you will get your answers.

glus
03-19-2007, 10:03 PM
Mr. Janak,
Do you understand English? First of all, i had mentioned, i am BEING offered, meaning i havent gone for the labor yet and even if i do there will be no buying or selling involved.
Second of all, i am sick and tired of stereotype Indians like you, who ASSUME everything without knowing anything and come out with your own theories from the bizzarro world [i know, pathetic loosers like to vent at any and every opportunities they get. Spare me your crap, if u dont know anything and cant help, then just stay quiet.]

Very well said Subst_labor. People like Janak are simply jealous that you had the offer. People like him always will think that you are cheating the system or something like that just because a company offered you a labor substitution. I think that one should not judge such cases, and I am actually happy for all of those who are fortunate enough to receive their green cards sooner because of third factors. Good luck with your Labor subst. I hope the company is OK.

G

LC2002
03-19-2007, 10:23 PM
If anyone who is stuck in with labor gets oppurtunity must use it. Even people who are jealous are given this oppurtunity will be first to run with that.

Very well said Subst_labor. People like Janak are simply jealous that you had the offer. People like him always will think that you are cheating the system or something like that just because a company offered you a labor substitution. I think that one should not judge such cases, and I am actually happy for all of those who are fortunate enough to receive their green cards sooner because of third factors. Good luck with your Labor subst. I hope the company is OK.

G

imneedy
03-20-2007, 11:01 AM
I second that!!

If anyone who is stuck in with labor gets oppurtunity must use it. Even people who are jealous are given this oppurtunity will be first to run with that.

imneedy
03-20-2007, 11:53 AM
Well there is no reason to say person who started this thread is buying labor.

Can you prove that you got an offer for substitute labor and you rejected it?

:o

If you have a valid point, why don't you start a new thread where people can report those users who post question on substitution. We will see if that forum gets popular.

It is distracting to people who came to look for answers based on title of this post. Good luck at mud slinging!!

......because you are using labor substitution.

At this time nobody can do anything legally against people who are using labor substitution and employers who are secretly selling labor substitution.

This substitution is increasing backlogs, is unfair to people waiting in line, encourages employer exploitation since they use it as an incentive to woo employees and then exploit them, 'selling' is illegal but one must complain against the employer and the employee for DOL to act.

Lawyers are part of this scam. I have read in some posts that even AILA opposed when labor substitution was being ended. It is a lost business opportunity for their lawyer members!!

I have pointed several labor substitution members on the forums in the past. some of them were never found on the forum since they feared being caught. They must have changed their ID or ran away. So until a law is passed for banning it, such 'trade' that hurts our interests will continue.

Good that you guys are only buying labor certifications. There is no 'legal' process to buy greencards directly from employers yet!!

captain
03-26-2007, 02:18 AM
Hello All,

I have one question.My employer is pursuing me to go for labor substitution
which is filied in Feb 2004.I got my H1 from Oct 2006.My skill sets and experience is matching with the orginal labor application.
It is not approved labor, but just labor application(EB3 application).
Can anyone tell me the time required to get name transfer on original labor application ? and whether it is beneficial to go for it instead of filing under PERM process.

Thanks in advance

Captain

zCool
03-26-2007, 02:27 AM
If it isn't approved.. then it's gonna be cancelled the moment that rule that's pending that comes out..
It's extremely risky and Feb 04 isn';t that great a PD.. just file new one .. correct way.. and relax.. you will probably get I140 approved earlier that way.. nothing's gonna happen unless laws change and if&when they change.. all PDs will be probably current for 6months to yr..

sivasiva
03-26-2007, 11:06 AM
gururs,

Is it possible to substitute labor as future employee?

Thanks

mariusp
03-26-2007, 11:52 AM
I second that. I filed using labor subst and let me tell you, not all of us buy/cheat to skip the line. I filed using another employee's labor who's working for the same company. My PD is in 2006 which doesn't help much and I've been working for this company way before 2006 anyway. So don't jump to conclusions because there still are people out there who use LC subst. for what it was intended for. And can anyone honestly say that they would refuse LC substitution because it is "evil"? I think that with the current situation we should take advantage of any break we can get.


Very well said Subst_labor. People like Janak are simply jealous that you had the offer. People like him always will think that you are cheating the system or something like that just because a company offered you a labor substitution. I think that one should not judge such cases, and I am actually happy for all of those who are fortunate enough to receive their green cards sooner because of third factors. Good luck with your Labor subst. I hope the company is OK.

G

ItIsNotFunny
03-26-2007, 02:19 PM
......because you are using labor substitution.

At this time nobody can do anything legally against people who are using labor substitution and employers who are secretly selling labor substitution.

This substitution is increasing backlogs, is unfair to people waiting in line, encourages employer exploitation since they use it as an incentive to woo employees and then exploit them, 'selling' is illegal but one must complain against the employer and the employee for DOL to act.

Lawyers are part of this scam. I have read in some posts that even AILA opposed when labor substitution was being ended. It is a lost business opportunity for their lawyer members!!

I have pointed several labor substitution members on the forums in the past. some of them were never found on the forum since they feared being caught. They must have changed their ID or ran away. So until a law is passed for banning it, such 'trade' that hurts our interests will continue.

Good that you guys are only buying labor certifications. There is no 'legal' process to buy greencards directly from employers yet!!

I am not using, but I still agree that given opportunity you should use it.

jackrabbit
03-26-2007, 05:37 PM
Has it passed? I cant wait for it to happen. Once it does, I will feel more confident leaving my employer knowing....

voldemar
03-26-2007, 06:56 PM
Has it passed? I cant wait for it to happen. Once it does, I will feel more confident leaving my employer knowing....No, waiting for OMB clearance.

GCFROMOHIO
03-26-2007, 07:18 PM
Hi All,

I currently have an EB3 March 2003 priority date labor I140 approved with my company. Recently, I wanted to move to consulting, sothat I can get my GC converted to EB2 as the dates are only 2 months apart. I have asked my company if they are willing to take me as a contractor once I am out of the company and go to a consulting company. They said that it should be fine, but they said if GC is the only purpose, they can try to do something about converting my existing labor to EB2. It's a very big fortune 500 company and they do all their labors in EB3. My question is:
1. Can I re-apply another labor in EB2 for a position that qualifies in the same company and can port the existing EB3 priority date? Has anyone done this in the past?
2. Can I use any prior priority date approved labor in the same company, even though my EB3 I140 is approved with the same company.

3. Can I move to consulting company and reapply in EB2 with existing priority date and work for the same company that has my current labor.

The company legal counsel said that they would come back to me with some answers this week, but I want to get second opinion from all of you in this regard. I have my Masters in 2000 and MBA in 2004 with 8 years experience and so EB2 qualification shouldn't be a problem

Any help will be greatly appreciated!


Thanks,

jackrabbit
03-26-2007, 07:45 PM
No, waiting for OMB clearance.

And does this mean that this law will definitely change, or is it still possible that vested interests may still keep substition alive?

johnmcdonald98
03-26-2007, 07:47 PM
And does this mean that this law will definitely change, or is it still possible that vested interests may still keep substition alive?


I want to know this too... What's the rough estimate, how long will it take before this will be come LAW?

thanks,

voldemar
03-26-2007, 07:47 PM
And does this mean that this law will definitely change, or is it still possible that vested interests may still keep substition alive?
It's not done till it done.

gc4me
03-27-2007, 09:56 AM
By Apr 26, if the LC Sub elimination becomes effective, will USCIS reject all pending LC Sub cases (I mean pending I-140, 485 etc using LC Sub) ?
Any idea, please reply. Or USCIS will continue processing them as usual?

ItIsNotFunny
03-27-2007, 09:59 AM
Hi All,

I currently have an EB3 March 2003 priority date labor I140 approved with my company. Recently, I wanted to move to consulting, sothat I can get my GC converted to EB2 as the dates are only 2 months apart. I have asked my company if they are willing to take me as a contractor once I am out of the company and go to a consulting company. They said that it should be fine, but they said if GC is the only purpose, they can try to do something about converting my existing labor to EB2. It's a very big fortune 500 company and they do all their labors in EB3. My question is:
1. Can I re-apply another labor in EB2 for a position that qualifies in the same company and can port the existing EB3 priority date? Has anyone done this in the past?
2. Can I use any prior priority date approved labor in the same company, even though my EB3 I140 is approved with the same company.

3. Can I move to consulting company and reapply in EB2 with existing priority date and work for the same company that has my current labor.

The company legal counsel said that they would come back to me with some answers this week, but I want to get second opinion from all of you in this regard. I have my Masters in 2000 and MBA in 2004 with 8 years experience and so EB2 qualification shouldn't be a problem

Any help will be greatly appreciated!


Thanks,

Yes, you can move to another company with existing priority date. You still have to get LC and I-140 approved from new company but while filing 485, you can use old 140 priority date.

voldemar
03-27-2007, 10:40 AM
By Apr 26, if the LC Sub elimination becomes effective,
How do you now that? Any sources?

will USCIS reject all pending LC Sub cases (I mean pending I-140, 485 etc using LC Sub) ?If text of the proposed memo will be the same, then all pending I-140 based on LC substitution should be denied.

gc4me
03-27-2007, 10:52 AM
From immigration-law.com

03/14/2007: Beware of Upcoming Final Rule to Eliminate Labor Certification Substitution Elimination and 45-Day Validity Cap

This is currently reviewed by the OMB since January 26, 2007. The OMB usually has upto 90 days to make a decision unless either the OMB or the agency (DOL) decides to extend the period. Just reminder!

-------------------
So, April 26 is the decision day. It can be extended or that might be the end of LC Sub.
My Q' was, if it becomes effective on 27th April, will USCIS reject all pending cases ?

How do you now that? Any sources?

If text of the proposed memo will be the same, then all pending I-140 based on LC substitution should be denied.

gc4me
03-27-2007, 11:19 AM
I did some internet search and found this Q&A in murthy.com
Cooool...people go ahead with LC Sub.

Q. I have a pending green card case based on a substituted labor. Do I need to worry about this proposed regulation?
©MurthyDotCom
A. It would not seem to affect pending green cards based on substituted labor, as long as the substitution was not being requested through the DOL. This regulation prohibits substitution through the DOL. So, if it were to go into effect, it is possible that it would end all pending requests for substitution of beneficiaries made to the DOL.
©MurthyDotCom
Most substitution requests are made via the USCIS at the I-140 petition filing stage. This involves labor certifications that have already been approved, and the substitution request is made in the filing of the I-140 petition at the USCIS. The regulation attacks this process by making labor certifications valid for only 45 days. Thus, all I-140s would have to be filed within 45 days of labor certification approval. Even if the regulation were to pass, however, it does not appear that it would have the power to terminate pending I-140s (even if based on LC substitution). If the cases are proper when filed, it does not seem that the regulation would extend to pending USCIS cases since the proposed regulation is a DOL, not a USCIS, regulation. If it were a USCIS regulation, then it could impact pending I-140 cases for which the labor certification is over 45 days old at the time of filing - not just LC substitution cases. Those cases with approved I-140s do not appear to be vulnerable to this proposed regulation.


How do you now that? Any sources?

If text of the proposed memo will be the same, then all pending I-140 based on LC substitution should be denied.

voldemar
03-27-2007, 11:22 AM
My Q' was, if it becomes effective on 27th April, will USCIS reject all pending cases ?It depends on wording in final memo. Nobody knows what is there. The only text we know is that was published for comments. There could be changes after comments period. Without changes all pending sub cases (without approved I-140) will be denied.
Edit: It seems that Murthy doesn't agree with me :). Let's see.

priderock
03-27-2007, 03:13 PM
Please do not use offensive language. Despite our disagreements we must be mature in our language. I request you to please edit your post.



.........................
Why don't you tell us how much you bought your labor for? Show us a proof that you have not bought it.

...............................
........................
It is with such mentaility they are brought up with in their country- Currption and getting things done with money. ........................................... In my country people contribute only when they fear god in temples, for medical treatment or to astrologers!!


........................whenever someone is diagnosed with a substitute labor cancer. Yes it is a cancer that is worsening retrogression further.

..................................

Now if someone argues with me on this post, then it will mean that either that person has himself bought a substitute labor or is looking for one.............

:confused:

gc4me
03-27-2007, 10:31 PM
Can you please provide link for the memo.



If text of the proposed memo will be the same, then all pending I-140 based on LC substitution should be denied.

voldemar
03-27-2007, 11:06 PM
Can you please provide link for the memo.
Sure http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20061800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/06-1248.htm

mariusp
03-28-2007, 01:52 PM
Sure http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20061800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/06-1248.htm

I spoke to two immigration attorneys about how this may affect pending I-140 cases with the USCIS and this is the reply I received:

Response 1:

I am aware of the proposed rule (and the DOL link you sent me). But this applies only to pending labor certification applications and to approved labor certification applications not yet filed with USCIS. Neither one of these situations applies in your case. Of course the elimination of substitution is a proposed rule only and no one can tell exactly if and when and how the final rule will come out.


Response 2:

Highly unlikely that this change would affect a case that was already filed.


Just to be safe I will request to convert to PP.

gc4me
03-28-2007, 03:37 PM
Looks like we have 45 days after the rule goes in effect. Please read the following text.
Will you please tell us which text you are refering to?


(b) Expiration of labor certifications. For certifications
resulting from applications filed under this regulation and the
regulation in effect prior to March 28, 2005:
(1) An approved permanent labor certification granted on or after
[effective date of the final rule] expires if not filed in support of a
petition with the Department of Homeland Security within 45 calendar
days of the date the Department of Labor granted the certification.
(2) An approved permanent labor certification granted before
[effective date of the final rule] expires if not filed in support of a
petition with the Department of Homeland Security within 45 calendar
days of [effective date of the final rule].
(c) Scope of validity. For certifications resulting from
applications filed under this regulation and the regulation in effect
prior to March 28, 2005:
(1) A permanent labor certification for a Schedule A occupation or
sheepherders is valid only for the occupation set forth on the
Application for Alien Employment Certification (ETA Form 750) or the
Application for Permanent Employment Certification (ETA Form 9089) and
only for the alien named on the original application, unless a
substitution was approved prior to [effective date of the final rule].
The certification is valid throughout the United States unless the
certification contains a geographic limitation.
(2) A permanent labor certification involving a specific job offer
is valid only for the particular job opportunity, the alien named on
the original application (unless a substitution was approved prior to
[effective date of the final rule]), and the area of intended
employment stated on the Application for Alien Employment Certification
(ETA Form 750) or the Application for Permanent Employment
Certification (ETA Form 9089).


Sure http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20061800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/06-1248.htm

voldemar
03-28-2007, 04:08 PM
Looks like we have 45 days after the rule goes in effect. Please read the following text.
Will you please tell us which text you are refering to?
(2) A permanent labor certification involving a specific job offer
is valid only for the particular job opportunity, the alien named on
the original application (unless a substitution was approved prior to
[effective date of the final rule]), and the area of intended
employment stated on the Application for Alien Employment Certification
(ETA Form 750) or the Application for Permanent Employment
Certification (ETA Form 9089).I'm referring to the above paragraph. The problem is how agency will define "approved" labor substitution.
I think that labor substitution is approved if I-140 is approved.
Again, I'm not a lawyer, it's just my understanding.

mariusp
03-28-2007, 04:25 PM
I'm more concerned about this:

(2) A permanent labor certification involving a specific job offer
is valid only for the particular job opportunity, the alien named on
the original application (unless a substitution was approved prior to
[effective date of the final rule]), and the area of intended
employment stated on the Application for Alien Employment Certification
(ETA Form 750) or the Application for Permanent Employment
Certification (ETA Form 9089).


Does this actually say that unless the substitution is approved before the rule becomes effective, the labor cert. would be invalidated?

:confused:

gc4me
03-28-2007, 04:52 PM
Looks like yes. I think, I-140 need to be cleared before April 26th.
Or the day the rule gets in effect.

I'm more concerned about this:


Does this actually say that unless the substitution is approved before the rule becomes effective, the labor cert. would be invalidated?

:confused:

mariusp
03-29-2007, 03:19 PM
OK, I've done some more homework and this is what I found in the proposed rule text:


III. Proposed Amendments to the Permanent Labor Certification
Regulations


The first amendment would prohibit the substitution of
alien beneficiaries on pending applications for permanent labor
certification and on approved permanent labor certifications not yet
filed with DHS.


Basically it says that the rule applies to:

(i) pending labor certification applications and
(ii) approved labor certification which have not yet been filed with USCIS

So it looks like you won't be affected if your case is already pending with the USCIS.

voldemar
03-29-2007, 04:02 PM
OK, I've done some more homework and this is what I found in the proposed rule text:

Basically it says that the rule applies to:

(i) pending labor certification applications and
(ii) approved labor certification which have not yet been filed with USCIS

So it looks like you won't be affected if your case is already pending with the USCIS.Good catch!

gc4me
03-29-2007, 10:38 PM
Looks like murthy.com is correct after all. Already filled I-140 with sub LC will not be affected.
Read this text.
*Substitution--Substitution of alien beneficiaries will be
prohibited as of the effective date of a final rule resulting from this
NPRM and that prohibition will apply to all pending permanent labor
certification applications and to approved certifications not yet filed
with DHS, whether the application was filed under the prior or current
regulation. This regulatory change would not affect substitutions
approved prior to the final rule's effective date.

Good catch!

CADude
04-18-2007, 03:49 PM
immigration-law.com

04/18/2007: Further Clarification on Pending I-140 Substitution Petitions and Proposed Substitution Elimination Rule

There are a couple of clarifications we want to make on our previous posting on this issue. The supplemental information part of a regulation is not binding, but when there is a room for interpretation on specific provisions of the rule itself, it gives a guidance to the interpretation. In this regards, for now, the correction to our previous interpretation should stand. Secondly, there is no information available about this issue in the final regulation which is expected to be released sooner or later. Whatever the final version will look, it may be prudent for the employers with the certified labor certification applications to file the substitution I-140 petitions as soon as possible before the final rule is released.
04/18/2007: Clarification and Correction of Scope of Validity of Substitution of Approved Labor Certifications Under the Proposed Substitution Elimination Rule

The final rule to eliminate the substitution is expected to be released in the near future. One question that raises the body heat has been the pending I-140 substitution petitions which have yet to be approved. Under the proposed regulation, there was a provision that the substitution approved at the time of enactment of the final rule will not be affected by the elimination rule. We previously interpreted the language "substitution approved" would include the approved I-140 substitution petitions and would not include the pending I-140 substitution petitions.
We want to correct such interpretation. The substitution approved under the proposed rule appears to mean the substitution approved by the DOL and not necessarily the I-140 substitution approval. Accordingly, if the I-140 has been filed and is pending at the time enactment of the final rule, such case should not be affected by the elimination rule and remain valid. This is made clear by the following supplemental information to the proposed regulaation:
Substitution of alien beneficiaries will be prohibited as of the effective date of a final rule resulting from this NPRM and that prohibition will apply to all pending permanent labor certification applications and to approved certifications not yet filed with DHS, whether the application was filed under the prior or current regulation. This regulatory change would not affect substitutions approved prior to the final rule's effective date.
We stand corrected on this change.

suresh73
04-20-2007, 11:12 AM
I am working for Company A and company B wanted to provide me with pre-approved labor of EB2 category with priority date in July 2002. The Company B's pre-approved EB2 labor was for a Master degree with salary of 80K. I have only bachelor Degree but with more than 8 years of experience in IT. My I-140 has been approved with the present employer company A but it is EB3.

Is there any possibility to take advantage of the company B's pre-approved EB2 labor certificate considering more than 5 years of experience as a qualification though it requires a Master degree.

Thank you.

ItIsNotFunny
04-20-2007, 11:46 AM
I am working for Company A and company B wanted to provide me with pre-approved labor of EB2 category with priority date in July 2002. The Company B's pre-approved EB2 labor was for a Master degree with salary of 80K. I have only bachelor Degree but with more than 8 years of experience in IT. My I-140 has been approved with the present employer company A but it is EB3.

Is there any possibility to take advantage of the company B's pre-approved EB2 labor certificate considering more than 5 years of experience as a qualification though it requires a Master degree.

Thank you.
Based one information above, I would not go for this.

godbole_sanjaya
04-20-2007, 11:57 AM
I wud suggest you against your wish.

ss1026
04-20-2007, 12:23 PM
I applied for a labor substitution in 2003. The old labor had a master degree given out in may of 1999 and I had mine in august of 1999. I went and applied for it but the substitution was rejected after about 2 years. I wasted more than 5K and about 2 years. It is too much of a risk but give it a shot if it worth the risk for you

lskreddy
04-22-2007, 07:36 PM
Check your messages Suresh. Thanks.

thecipher5
04-23-2007, 10:52 AM
Suresh,

I just sent you a pm regarding a similar situation I'd faced...

Contact me if you need more information.


thecipher5

priderock
04-23-2007, 01:43 PM
I received an offer exactly same as above. Every thing is same (What a coincidence). Do you guys think it wont work if the original LC asked for masters but if you have BS + 14 yrs of exp, can we substitute ?

thecipher5 , IskReddy , what is your suggestion ??

thecipher5
04-23-2007, 01:59 PM
priderock,

There is definately an element of risk and it is high in case of LC substitution. In my case, the LC said that the candidate should have MS and few years of experience and I didn't satisfy all the requirements and eventually got a query from USCIS and rejected the application.

If you can get it approved through a good lawyer like Sheela Murthy or Rajiv Khanna, then you can make a decision.

At times, USCIS doesn't allow to substitute MS degree with experience and it depends on the wording of the LC.

I'd read about this in different forums, talked to lawyers and friends.

Still, you can talk to others who've done it and then make your decision.


-- thecipher5

johnmcdonald98
04-23-2007, 02:48 PM
I work for this company and I moved to the different state. Now my company has approved labor from the state I was before in with similar job as mine with similar degree as mine. What do you guys say, should I go for substitution? Lawyer says that even though I am in a different state, he can apply for this, but if it takes more than 6 months, he will file state change and I will be ok. Worst case is, I have to move, but only when its approved. What do you guys say, should I go for it?

lskreddy
04-23-2007, 04:24 PM
Unless the requirements said Bachelors plus five years experience will be accepted in lieu of Masters, the labor substitution is a risk. The people who go through these files go by rules and I think they are advised not to use any logical reasoning. It certainly would be risky to go for substitution unless you can produce what is needed.

Experience certificates are probably scrutinized in a less stringent way but education is a no-brainer and they might not approve. Ofcourse, I am not a lawyer, spend a couple of hundred with reputed lawyers. This might save a lot of grief later.

BTW, what does the employer's lawyer say? Don't they have one.

priderock
04-26-2007, 01:53 AM
That was a no go for me. The company's Lawyer advised against it.

stuckinmuck
04-26-2007, 02:58 PM
Hello all,
Any news on what happened on the decision on suspension/removal of labor substitution? I searched in google but couldn't find any updates.

Also, any idea of how much relief this would offer for GC retrogression?

Thanks

Contribution so far: $1000

voldemar
04-28-2007, 01:38 PM
Hello all,
Any news on what happened on the decision on suspension/removal of labor substitution? I searched in google but couldn't find any updates.
Substitution ban rule got clearance from OMB
AGENCY: DOL-ETA RIN: 1205-AB42
TITLE: Labor Certification for the Permanent Employment of Aliens in the United States; Reducing the Incentives and Opportunities for Fraud and Abuse and Enhancing Program Integrity
STAGE: Final Rule ECONOMICALLY SIGNIFICANT: No
RECEIVED DATE: 01/26/2007 LEGAL DEADLINE: None
** COMPLETED: 04/27/2007 COMPLETED ACTION: Consistent with Change

Check http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eoPackageMain

whoever
04-28-2007, 01:48 PM
so no more labor substitution han? that sounds so sweet to me. we should expect pd movement for eb3 now and maybe for eb2 too now. and this is the best news i have heard in such a long time.

voldemar
04-28-2007, 02:16 PM
so no more labor substitution han? that sounds so sweet to me. we should expect pd movement for eb3 now and maybe for eb2 too now. and this is the best news i have heard in such a long time.
Not yet. Rule should be published in Federal Register.

akkakarla
04-28-2007, 05:23 PM
When will they register and when will this abuse of labor sub stop?

amslonewolf
04-28-2007, 08:01 PM
Matthew Ohs website has it.. Check out immigration-law..

md2003
04-28-2007, 08:06 PM
I don't believe Matthew Oh. Eventually he is going to say INS still not yet approved .

amslonewolf
04-28-2007, 08:14 PM
http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eoDetails?rrid=114132

It cannot get more official than this. Please note, that this still needs to be published in the federal register.

sbabunle
04-28-2007, 09:23 PM
Now its just a matter of time..I'm glad it is a rule now. I think
a ton of applications will end up in trash cans. Especially from these
consulting companies..

Only thing is that they have 45 day validity for approved labor.
Hope they extended it some more time.

zCool
04-28-2007, 10:17 PM
Finally!!!..
So what happened with Murthy's contacts and advice to INS officials etc???? :p
This is too little .. too late..
Most of the crooks already used up or sold after initial bulletin in march!
But better late than never..

rkm
04-28-2007, 10:36 PM
Good News ...

04/28/2007: Labor Certification Substitution Elimination Final Rule Approved by OMB 04/27/2007

The OMB approved this final rule. As soon as this rule is released, all those certified labor certification cases which have yet to be filed for substitution I-140 will be no good for substitution.

ns007
04-28-2007, 11:18 PM
From immigration-law.com

04/28/2007: Labor Certification Substitution Elimination Final Rule Approved by OMB 04/27/2007

The OMB approved this final rule. As soon as this rule is released, all those certified labor certification cases which have yet to be filed for substitution I-140 will be no good for substitution.

ns007
04-28-2007, 11:29 PM
Administrator,

There is an another thread on the same topic. Please merge both threads.

Sorry, I didn't see that thread before opening this.

aamchimumbai
04-28-2007, 11:42 PM
All!

Will the no labor substitution clause will affect in any way for the following situation -

1. Company A - labor cleared, approved I-140 and now moving onto Company B. Can the old labor PD be ported to the new labor certification and new I-140 approval with Company B.

I am assuming that the labor cannot be used for anyone within Company A. Right ?

What are your thoughts.

Thanks.

sampath
04-29-2007, 01:22 AM
Can you anyone tell what the lines highlighted below in blue means ?

************************************************** ******

RIN: 1205-AB42 Agenda Cycle: 200610

Title: Labor Certification for the Permanent Employment of Aliens in the United States; Reducing the Incentives and Opportunities for Fraud and Abuse and Enhancing Program Integrity

Abstract: The Department of Labor proposed changes to reduce the incentives and opportunities for fraud and abuse related to the permanent employment of aliens in the United States. Among other key changes, the Department is eliminating the current practice of allowing the substitution of alien beneficiaries on applications and approved labor certifications. DOL proposed to further reduce the likelihood of the submission of fraudulent applications for the permanent employment of aliens in the United States by proposing a 45-day deadline for employers to file approved permanent labor certifications in support of a petition with the Department of Homeland Security. The Final Rule expressly prohibits the sale, barter, or purchase of permanent labor certifications or applications, as well as related payments. The proposed rule also addresses enforcement mechanisms to protect program integrity, including debarment with appeal rights. These amendments would apply to employers using both the Application for Alien Employment Certification (Form ETA 750) or the Application for Permanent Employment Certification (Form ETA 9089).

************************************************** *******
i got the above info from the OMB website below -

http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eoViewRule?ruleID=269657

agiridhar
04-29-2007, 02:20 AM
Indeed good for the community.
wouldn't it be even better when investigations are carried out on the substitued cases and action be taken on employers and their law firms ?
Wouldn't it be better to bring a law to prohibit employer's taking money from the employees to file h1's and gc's ?
Not sure what kind of a law could police/monitor an employer taking cash from the employee ?

Any thots ?

amulchandra
04-29-2007, 10:19 AM
This is from Immigration Law firm. Is it true?

04/28/2007: Labor Certification Substitution Elimination Final Rule Approved by OMB 04/27/2007

The OMB approved this final rule. As soon as this rule is released, all those certified labor certification cases which have yet to be filed for substitution I-140 will be no good for substitution.

apnair2002
04-29-2007, 10:23 AM
04/29/2007: Elimination of Substitution of Aliens for the Certified Labor Certification Applications

As we stated earlier, the OMB had 90 days to make a decision on this DOL Final Rule. It was submitted on 01/26/2007 and the OMB cleared on 04/27/2007, just immediately prior to expiration of 90 days.
This final rule will not go into effect until it is published by the DOL in the federal register. Record reflects that this final rule will not be published in the federal register, Monday, 04/30/2007. We have yet to see what changes to the proposed version of the rule the DOL made in the final rule. However, it is certain that this rule will not go into effect on Monday, 04/30/2007, and there may still be some actions the employers can make before it is published in the federal register.
Pending Labor Certification Cases: PERM rule does not allow any amendments and no substitution of alien beneficiary available until the PERM application is certified. By the time PERM is approved, it may be too late to initiate the substitution. However, the cases which are pending at the BECs are different. The beneficiaries can be substituted inasmuch as the job order and the BEC supervised recruitment has yet to be initiated. At this time, the amendment of the BEC application does not require a paper request and e-mail or even phone call request followed by fax will work to substitute the alien. Under the final rule which will go into effect soon, the labor certification applications at the stage of DOL can survive only if the substitution has been approved at the time of release of the final rule. Accordingly, the employers can contact the BECs tomorrow, Monday, to amend the pending ETA 705 and alien beneficiary over the phone, via e-mail, followed by the phone calls and fax or straightforwardedly via fax. CAVEAT: If substitution is denied and original beneficiary ETA 750 is denied for the reason that there is no beneficiary, the employer can lose everything!!
Certified Labor Certification Cases: These cases will not be able to survive unless the I-140 petition is quickly filed on Monday substituting the alien beneficiary. The earliest filing date will be "Tuesday" since overnight delivery has to reach the Service Centers. Still worth trying. Once it is "filed," it will be safe. There remain a host of issues which will have to be resolved by the USCIS as to the consequences of the denial of these substitution I-140 petitions on issues other than alien beneficiaries qualifications such as the employer's financial ability to pay the proffered wage, etc. Obviously, the denial becomes a "final" action, the cases on appeal to the AAO will continue to remain outside the parameter of the elimination rule. Another question is the effect of motion to reopen of denial of substitution I-140 petitions. There is some chance that the USCIS may decide that once the motion is granted and I-140 petition is approved, the DOL's final rule of elimination of substitution will not affect the case. What if the employer refiles the substitution I-140 petitions? The chances of these cases will remail slim or nil. Since it will be considred a "new" filing of substitution I-140 petition, the USCIS may rule that such filing will be subject to the DOL's substitution elimination final rule. There will be other issues which fall under the jurisdiction of the USCIS rather than DOL as related to the interpretation of the substitution I-140 petitions. The USCIS is scheduled to initiate this rule making process sooner or later. Please stay tuned.
Impact on the Retention of Priority Date: The rule of retention of priority date is governed not by the DOL but by the USCIS. Under the USCIS rule, the priority date of the labor certification application is not retained until I-140 petition is "approved." Accordingly, if the decision of the denial of the substitution I-140 becomes final on appeal, the substituting alien will not be able to retain the priority. Neither the original beneficiary can retain the priority date unless the alien beneficiary substition I-140 petition was filed after the I-140 had been approved for the original beneficiary.
Impact on the 7th-Year H-1B Extension: Until the substitution I-140 is denied and becomes final on appeal, the substitutiing alien will be able to continuously extend the H-1B status in one-year increment, but the substituted alien will not be able to extend the 7th-year H-1B status based on the substituted labor certification application. Once the decision of denial becomes final, the substituting alien will not be able to extend the H-1B status after that time, but the validity of the approved 7th-year H-1B status will remain valid until the expiration date.
Impact on the 245(i) Benefits: Grandfathering of the 245(i) benefits cannot be transferred to other aliens and substituting aliens cannot take over the 245(i) benefits unless the substitution was filed before April 30, 2001. Once the grandfathering is attached, it remains valid unless "not approveable at the time of labor certification application filing" is found. Accordingly, the denial of substitution I-140 petition on behalf of the substituting alien will have no affect on the original beneficiary's retention of the 245(i) benefits.
Well, let's wait and see the text of the soon-to-be published final rule.

apnair2002
04-29-2007, 10:26 AM
04/29/2007: Elimination of Substitution of Aliens for the Certified Labor Certification Applications
As we stated earlier, the OMB had 90 days to make a decision on this DOL Final Rule. It was submitted on 01/26/2007 and the OMB cleared on 04/27/2007, just immediately prior to expiration of 90 days.
This final rule will not go into effect until it is published by the DOL in the federal register. Record reflects that this final rule will not be published in the federal register, Monday, 04/30/2007. We have yet to see what changes to the proposed version of the rule the DOL made in the final rule. However, it is certain that this rule will not go into effect on Monday, 04/30/2007, and there may still be some actions the employers can make before it is published in the federal register.
Pending Labor Certification Cases: PERM rule does not allow any amendments and no substitution of alien beneficiary available until the PERM application is certified. By the time PERM is approved, it may be too late to initiate the substitution. However, the cases which are pending at the BECs are different. The beneficiaries can be substituted inasmuch as the job order and the BEC supervised recruitment has yet to be initiated. At this time, the amendment of the BEC application does not require a paper request and e-mail or even phone call request followed by fax will work to substitute the alien. Under the final rule which will go into effect soon, the labor certification applications at the stage of DOL can survive only if the substitution has been approved at the time of release of the final rule. Accordingly, the employers can contact the BECs tomorrow, Monday, to amend the pending ETA 705 and alien beneficiary over the phone, via e-mail, followed by the phone calls and fax or straightforwardedly via fax. CAVEAT: If substitution is denied and original beneficiary ETA 750 is denied for the reason that there is no beneficiary, the employer can lose everything!!
Certified Labor Certification Cases: These cases will not be able to survive unless the I-140 petition is quickly filed on Monday substituting the alien beneficiary. The earliest filing date will be "Tuesday" since overnight delivery has to reach the Service Centers. Still worth trying. Once it is "filed," it will be safe. There remain a host of issues which will have to be resolved by the USCIS as to the consequences of the denial of these substitution I-140 petitions on issues other than alien beneficiaries qualifications such as the employer's financial ability to pay the proffered wage, etc. Obviously, the denial becomes a "final" action, the cases on appeal to the AAO will continue to remain outside the parameter of the elimination rule. Another question is the effect of motion to reopen of denial of substitution I-140 petitions. There is some chance that the USCIS may decide that once the motion is granted and I-140 petition is approved, the DOL's final rule of elimination of substitution will not affect the case. What if the employer refiles the substitution I-140 petitions? The chances of these cases will remail slim or nil. Since it will be considred a "new" filing of substitution I-140 petition, the USCIS may rule that such filing will be subject to the DOL's substitution elimination final rule. There will be other issues which fall under the jurisdiction of the USCIS rather than DOL as related to the interpretation of the substitution I-140 petitions. The USCIS is scheduled to initiate this rule making process sooner or later. Please stay tuned.
Impact on the Retention of Priority Date: The rule of retention of priority date is governed not by the DOL but by the USCIS. Under the USCIS rule, the priority date of the labor certification application is not retained until I-140 petition is "approved." Accordingly, if the decision of the denial of the substitution I-140 becomes final on appeal, the substituting alien will not be able to retain the priority. Neither the original beneficiary can retain the priority date unless the alien beneficiary substition I-140 petition was filed after the I-140 had been approved for the original beneficiary.
Impact on the 7th-Year H-1B Extension: Until the substitution I-140 is denied and becomes final on appeal, the substitutiing alien will be able to continuously extend the H-1B status in one-year increment, but the substituted alien will not be able to extend the 7th-year H-1B status based on the substituted labor certification application. Once the decision of denial becomes final, the substituting alien will not be able to extend the H-1B status after that time, but the validity of the approved 7th-year H-1B status will remain valid until the expiration date.
Impact on the 245(i) Benefits: Grandfathering of the 245(i) benefits cannot be transferred to other aliens and substituting aliens cannot take over the 245(i) benefits unless the substitution was filed before April 30, 2001. Once the grandfathering is attached, it remains valid unless "not approveable at the time of labor certification application filing" is found. Accordingly, the denial of substitution I-140 petition on behalf of the substituting alien will have no affect on the original beneficiary's retention of the 245(i) benefits.
Well, let's wait and see the text of the soon-to-be published final rule.

sbabunle
04-29-2007, 01:31 PM
That means---> Once the labor is approved you have to use it in 45 days.
ie apply for 140 in 45 days or LC is expired...I'm glad they did not propose to file I485 in 45 days :D

I think 45 days is too short. Since LC cannot replaced, it cannot be used for anyone else. So I dont understand why they need an expiry date too...At lease a LC should be valid for 6 months.

But we have to wait and see what the final rule is. There may be some changes fromt he proposed rule.

babu



Can you anyone tell what the lines highlighted below in blue means ?

************************************************** ******

RIN: 1205-AB42 Agenda Cycle: 200610

Title: Labor Certification for the Permanent Employment of Aliens in the United States; Reducing the Incentives and Opportunities for Fraud and Abuse and Enhancing Program Integrity

Abstract: The Department of Labor proposed changes to reduce the incentives and opportunities for fraud and abuse related to the permanent employment of aliens in the United States. Among other key changes, the Department is eliminating the current practice of allowing the substitution of alien beneficiaries on applications and approved labor certifications. DOL proposed to further reduce the likelihood of the submission of fraudulent applications for the permanent employment of aliens in the United States by proposing a 45-day deadline for employers to file approved permanent labor certifications in support of a petition with the Department of Homeland Security. The Final Rule expressly prohibits the sale, barter, or purchase of permanent labor certifications or applications, as well as related payments. The proposed rule also addresses enforcement mechanisms to protect program integrity, including debarment with appeal rights. These amendments would apply to employers using both the Application for Alien Employment Certification (Form ETA 750) or the Application for Permanent Employment Certification (Form ETA 9089).

************************************************** *******
i got the above info from the OMB website below -

http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eoViewRule?ruleID=269657

DareYouFireMe
04-29-2007, 02:05 PM
I am not sure why it is referred as abuse...
It is available to everybody.

GCFROMOHIO
04-29-2007, 07:48 PM
Hi All,

The company which is currently processing my GC in EB3 is willing to file another one in EB2 category, so that I can port my labor priority date which is two months away from date. Apparently, they are willing to do as my position has changed over couple of years and I now have completed by MBA in 2005. My questions are:
1. Will there be any risk in my filing my second labor for the same company in EB2 but with a different tile which matches my current job resposibilities.
2. Can I port my old labor priority date from the same company to this new labor.

The company lawyer, says that it should be fine, but I wanted to double check, so as to be on the safe side.

Thanks for all of your help in this regard.


Hi All,

I currently have an EB3 March 2003 priority date labor I140 approved with my company. Recently, I wanted to move to consulting, sothat I can get my GC converted to EB2 as the dates are only 2 months apart. I have asked my company if they are willing to take me as a contractor once I am out of the company and go to a consulting company. They said that it should be fine, but they said if GC is the only purpose, they can try to do something about converting my existing labor to EB2. It's a very big fortune 500 company and they do all their labors in EB3. My question is:
1. Can I re-apply another labor in EB2 for a position that qualifies in the same company and can port the existing EB3 priority date? Has anyone done this in the past?
2. Can I use any prior priority date approved labor in the same company, even though my EB3 I140 is approved with the same company.

3. Can I move to consulting company and reapply in EB2 with existing priority date and work for the same company that has my current labor.

The company legal counsel said that they would come back to me with some answers this week, but I want to get second opinion from all of you in this regard. I have my Masters in 2000 and MBA in 2004 with 8 years experience and so EB2 qualification shouldn't be a problem

Any help will be greatly appreciated!




Thanks,

sbabunle
04-30-2007, 01:06 AM
A friend of me from my work also tried for the same. He got
similar answer from atty. Atty's comment was that, the new
labor does not have to be same was old one but still they can port
the PD. But it cannot be a huge difference like an electical engineer
in first LC second is a movie maker.



Hi All,

The company which is currently processing my GC in EB3 is willing to file another one in EB2 category, so that I can port my labor priority date which is two months away from date. Apparently, they are willing to do as my position has changed over couple of years and I now have completed by MBA in 2005. My questions are:
1. Will there be any risk in my filing my second labor for the same company in EB2 but with a different tile which matches my current job resposibilities.
2. Can I port my old labor priority date from the same company to this new labor.

The company lawyer, says that it should be fine, but I wanted to double check, so as to be on the safe side.

Thanks for all of your help in this regard.

amslonewolf
04-30-2007, 09:21 AM
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/30apr20070800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/ua070430/ua070413.txt

Is this the final ruling. Search for 1776..

desolate
04-30-2007, 12:50 PM
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/11dec20060800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/ua070430/pdf/ua070413.pdf

We got 45 days from LC certification to filing I-140. So basically no LC older than 45 days from the date of approval on LC will be eligible for filing I-140 effective immediately