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sweet_jungle
02-12-2008, 12:39 PM
huge move for EB3 ROw. it was expected I think.

Honda
02-12-2008, 12:57 PM
huge move for EB3 ROw. it was expected I think.

01AUG01

manderson
02-12-2008, 01:00 PM
correction: EB3 ROW = 01JAN05 !!!!!!!!!!!!!

OMG!!!

Just 1.25 more year and I would have been current! Damn!!!!

01AUG01

WaitingUnlimited
02-12-2008, 01:02 PM
http://travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/bulletin/bulletin_3953.html

pathmaker
02-12-2008, 01:05 PM
correction: EB3 ROW = 01JAN05 !!!!!!!!!!!!!

OMG!!!

Just 1.25 more year and I would have been current! Damn!!!!



are you dreaming ... India EB3 is 01AUG01

manderson
02-12-2008, 01:09 PM
pls read my post. I said EB3 ROW

are you dreaming ... India EB3 is 01AUG01

hpandey
02-12-2008, 01:10 PM
are you dreaming ... India EB3 is 01AUG01

He is talking about ROW EB3 and not India. EB3- ROW is at 1 Jan 05

prinive
02-12-2008, 01:26 PM
Just missed.... My PD is EB3 Sep 2001... Not sure what is going to happen because of the latest name check procedure change....

Circus123
02-12-2008, 01:42 PM
September 2001 will be current next month for sure ...

Refugee_New
02-12-2008, 01:43 PM
EB2 India is screwed again. My wait continues.................

rockstart
02-12-2008, 01:50 PM
Does it mean that till Oct 08 bulletin there is no point to expect anything for India EB2?

webm
02-12-2008, 01:51 PM
Looks fresh and some positive movement for India EB3 ROW..this time atleast...:)

Go India EB3 Go...


Thanks to IV...


---------
PD:Oct'01

sapota
02-12-2008, 01:52 PM
atleast for people from India. esp. EB2

sapota
02-12-2008, 01:54 PM
http://blogs.ilw.com/gregsiskind/2008/02/house-dems-to-p.html

Good strategy. Need to make sure all EB provisions are still intact in these reforms targetted for spring & Summer of this year.

nviren
02-12-2008, 02:01 PM
Hi,

In the past any leftover numbers from undersubscribed countries were being given to the oversubscribed countries in the final quarter of the year (Jul-Sept), That's how so many of indians and chinese got their GCs over last 4-5 years.

My question is, is that still the policy of the USCIS? Will USCIS use the leftover numbers from ROW for India/China.

The possibiliy of having quite a few of leftover numbers is high as ROW is current for EB2. That might bail out, to some extent, EB2 India.

You of course have to count the effect of new memorandum about FBI Name check into this mix.

Thanks,

Viren

freakin_gc
02-12-2008, 02:03 PM
Whether unused visa in EB-3 Row will go to EB3 India?

http://blogs.ilw.com/gregsiskind/2008/02/house-dems-to-p.html

Good strategy. Need to make sure all EB provisions are still intact in these reforms targetted for spring & Summer of this year.

NKR
02-12-2008, 02:04 PM
Hi,

In the past any leftover numbers from undersubscribed countries were being given to the oversubscribed countries in the final quarter of the year (Jul-Sept), That's how so many of indians and chinese got their GCs over last 4-5 years.

My question is, is that still the policy of the USCIS? Will USCIS use the leftover numbers from ROW for India/China.

The possibiliy of having quite a few of leftover numbers is high as ROW is current for EB2. That might bail out, to some extent, EB2 India.

You of course have to count the effect of new memorandum about FBI Name check into this mix.

Thanks,

Viren



No left overs from ROW to POW (this is what I am feeling right now with EB2 being unavailable)..

whitecollarslave
02-12-2008, 02:11 PM
http://blogs.ilw.com/gregsiskind/2008/02/house-dems-to-p.html

Good strategy. Need to make sure all EB provisions are still intact in these reforms targetted for spring & Summer of this year.

How can we find out if EB provisions are there?

prinive
02-12-2008, 02:16 PM
I dont think so....:o If that happens, I will send you a bag of sugar to you... :rolleyes:

September 2001 will be current next month for sure ...

logiclife
02-12-2008, 02:17 PM
I have seen this dog and pony show one too many times. Every year, people think that next year's quota of 140,000 will cause the dates for India and China to go forward in the October Bulletin. October will be the end of misery.

Each year, in October bulletin, for India/China EB3, the dates are either stagnant or they go back to 1998 or 1999.

The thing is, as long as there is this per-country quota rationing of green cards, ROW folks will keep moving to the HOV lane and each year, in Oct to Dec timeframe their dates will get current and they will get GCs.

And each year, the dates for India and China will keep yo-yoing between 1998 and 2002, will never move forward, because if per-country limits are applied to 140,000 greencards, then there is very very little leftover that flows to India/China.

So without an increase in Quota or without removal of per-country discrimination, nothing is going to happen either in Oct 2008 or Oct 2009 or Oct 2010. It will keep fluctuating between 1998 and 2002. That is the bracket for India and China.

Lisap
02-12-2008, 02:19 PM
Whether unused visa in EB-3 Row will go to EB3 India?



I am a little unclear on all of the retrogression ect. But can someone please explain how EB3 ROW can be retrogressed and not use all of the visa numbers in a year? That doesnt even make sense to me? Would someone please shed some light?

user1205
02-12-2008, 02:30 PM
I haven't seen the ROW dates to be current since 2005 when everything got retrogressed (except the crazy thing that happened last summer).

As far as I know there were A LOT more cases approved in that July fiasco that were from India, I believe the number in June/July was about 3 times the anual quota.

I know you're probably VERY frustrated because of the ROW move while the India cutoff dates are still in 2001 but please don't start the discussion on ROW vs India/Chiana. It's not helping anybody.
I agree that country quotas are wrong and the number of GC per year is ridiculous. But getting people to argue against eachother is not a solution. Supporting the legislative/admin changes is (and I know you've done A LOT to make things happen)



The thing is, as long as there is this per-country quota rationing of green cards, ROW folks will keep moving to the HOV lane and each year, in Oct to Dec timeframe their dates will get current and they will get GCs.

sh2005
02-12-2008, 02:32 PM
I am a little unclear on all of the retrogression ect. But can someone please explain how EB3 ROW can be retrogressed and not use all of the visa numbers in a year? That doesnt even make sense to me? Would someone please shed some light?

I have the same question. State dept advances the date just so that the available visas are used up for that category by the end of the fiscal year. If a category is retrogressed, then it can't really be "undersubscribed". Maybe there's more to it than what meets the eye here?

The following was listed at the bottom of the page in the March VB in state dept's website:

The cut-off date movement for March in several Employment categories has been greater than those experienced in recent months. Advancement of the cut-off dates at this time should prevent a situation later in the fiscal year where there are large amounts of numbers available but not enough time to use them. If the expected increase in CIS number use materializes, future cut-off date movements could slow or stop.

In the past, state dept guesstimated the demand for visas and changed the dates accordingly. Now that USCIS has almost everyone's I-485 application (those who were able to file by August 2007), logic would dictate that the state dept calculates these date movements based on feedback from USCIS. But maybe that isn't the case. Does anyone have any insight on this?

user1205
02-12-2008, 02:37 PM
As far as I know the country quotas are followed only in the first 3 quarters of the year. Last year a lot of numbers were used for India/China in the June/July fiasco and ROW used less than the yearly quota. India had I think 3 times the yearly quota in those months. So they're trying to use up as much as they can for ROW this year I guess.


I have the same question. State dept moves the date just so that the visa numbers are used for that category. If a category is retrogressed, then it can't really be "undersubscribed".

This was listed at the bottom of the page in the March VB in state dept's website:

The cut-off date movement for March in several Employment categories has been greater than those experienced in recent months. Advancement of the cut-off dates at this time should prevent a situation later in the fiscal year where there are large amounts of numbers available but not enough time to use them. If the expected increase in CIS number use materializes, future cut-off date movements could slow or stop.

Googler
02-12-2008, 02:38 PM
I have the same question. State dept moves the date just so that the visa numbers are used for that category. If a category is retrogressed, then it can't really be "undersubscribed".

This was listed at the bottom of the page in the March VB in state dept's website:

The cut-off date movement for March in several Employment categories has been greater than those experienced in recent months. Advancement of the cut-off dates at this time should prevent a situation later in the fiscal year where there are large amounts of numbers available but not enough time to use them. If the expected increase in CIS number use materializes, future cut-off date movements could slow or stop.

Mods should merge two identical threads. See my post in the other thread:
http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showpost.php?p=222365&postcount=12

JA1HIND
02-12-2008, 02:38 PM
Does it mean that till Oct 08 bulletin there is no point to expect anything for India EB2?

I suspect VB in Oct08 might be good for EB2...if you look at the below copied "Archived Visa Bulletin" URL and I see month of October is always been a fruitful month for EB2 (Employment Based) and I am thinking this year Oct 08 will also show us some good updates...

Check this URL:
http://travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/bulletin/bulletin_1360.html

October 2007: EB2 - 01APR04
October 2006: EB2 - 15JUN02
October 2005: EB2 - 01NOV99
October 2004: EB2 - C (Current)

kevinkris
02-12-2008, 02:44 PM
Can anyone explain me..

GCard_Dream
02-12-2008, 02:48 PM
ROW = Rest of the World. It refers to countries other than India, China, Mexico, and I believe Philippines.

Can anyone explain me..

Lasantha
02-12-2008, 03:08 PM
Yeah, Tell me about it!!!

Just two more months and mine would have been current!!!!

correction: EB3 ROW = 01JAN05 !!!!!!!!!!!!!

OMG!!!

Just 1.25 more year and I would have been current! Damn!!!!

jonty_11
02-12-2008, 03:11 PM
man..I do not see any hope for India...EB2 esp.

This sucks...we are in for along haul teh indians on this community...brace urselves.

GCard_Dream
02-12-2008, 03:15 PM
If the current EB3-ROW move is any indication one can rely on, I think you will be current in next month's bulletin. I bet you can't wait.

I wonder what kind of move we might see for eb3 -row next month.

Yeah, Tell me about it!!!

Just two more months and mine would have been current!!!!

Lasantha
02-12-2008, 03:21 PM
Yes, I wonder too. The new memo with the 180 day rule for FBI name check may create a considerable demand for visa numbers and could slow things down.

If the current EB3-ROW move is any indication one can rely on, I think you will be current in next month's bulletin. I bet you can't wait.

I wonder what kind of move we might see for eb3 -row next month.

Ramba
02-12-2008, 03:25 PM
Yeah, Tell me about it!!!

Just two more months and mine would have been current!!!!

I wish your hopes comes true. However, one thing you should remember. There are many guys with PD before 2005 got stuck due to name check, particularly in ROW catagory. This big jump in PD for ROW and new name check clearance rule, will makes tons of 485s become eligible for approval in March.

As they mentioned in their comment, they may freeze the PD for ROW in APril or move back to 2004, depending on how many EB3-ROW gets GC in March.

Lasantha
02-12-2008, 03:32 PM
Yes Ramba. I am aware of that. I will not start celebrating I till I see the GC in my hands. But still I am pretty excited about all this.

I wish your hopes comes true. However, one thing you should remember. There are many guys with PD before 2005 got stuck due to name check, particularly in ROW catagory. This big jump in PD for ROW and new name check clearance rule, will makes tons of 485s become eligible for approval in March.

As they mentioned in their comment, they may freeze the PD for ROW in APril or move back to 2004, depending on how many EB3-ROW gets GC in March.

user1205
02-12-2008, 03:51 PM
9 moths and 5 days for me :-)


Yeah, Tell me about it!!!

Just two more months and mine would have been current!!!!

gc_bulgaria
02-12-2008, 03:52 PM
Does this mean they have accounted for the people who will claer the name check hurdle after the recent memo? I was expecting EB2 ROW to retrogress based on that.

user1205
02-12-2008, 03:54 PM
Also keep in mind all the people with old PDs that filed 140 and 485 at the same time and are now stuck in the 140 mess. As soon as that starts clearing out there will be a lot more demand for GC. I'm afraid we'll have to wait for some more time before it moves forward.

user1205
02-12-2008, 03:55 PM
I doubt it. I think we'll start seeing the results of that rule in the next couple of months and then it will maybe get retrogressed.

Does this mean they have accounted for the people who will claer the name check hurdle after the recent memo? I was expecting EB2 ROW to retrogress based on that.

edgarrecto
02-12-2008, 04:07 PM
Just missed.... My PD is EB3 Sep 2001... Not sure what is going to happen because of the latest name check procedure change....

my pd is september 27,2005. i am from thephilippines. i guess eb3 for philippines will be current very very soon

sh2005
02-12-2008, 04:38 PM
I wish your hopes comes true. However, one thing you should remember. There are many guys with PD before 2005 got stuck due to name check, particularly in ROW catagory. This big jump in PD for ROW and new name check clearance rule, will makes tons of 485s become eligible for approval in March.

As they mentioned in their comment, they may freeze the PD for ROW in APril or move back to 2004, depending on how many EB3-ROW gets GC in March.

Ramba,
I see the comment where USCIS said date movement can slow down or stop, but didn't say anything about going back to an earlier cutoff date. Of course, I am pretty sure that State dept didn't take into consideration the new Name Check rule. So as we have seen before, anything is possible :)

manderson
02-12-2008, 05:35 PM
actually Philippines has it's own category in the Visa Bulletin. So technically it's not part of ROW. But practically speaking EB3 ROW dates and Philippines EB3 (previously Schedule A Nurses) are usually very close...

ROW = Rest of the World. It refers to countries other than India, China, Mexico, and I believe Philippines.

user1205
02-12-2008, 06:09 PM
They need to pump up more numbers otherwise getting rid of quotas doesn't help much.

Per country quota sucks big time. DOL/USCIS needs to get rid of it ASAP.

grupak
02-12-2008, 06:37 PM
To fix the problem for everybody need both (1) increase in visa numbers and (2) remove/increase country quota, IMHO.

kuhelica2000
02-12-2008, 06:58 PM
Quota means a guaranteed number of visa for a country. For example if there is a 3% quota for monorities in college admissions, it guarentees 3% will go to minorities. There is no such quota for green card; only maximum limit a country can use. Even with this limit India captures more visas then any of the ROW countries.


Getting rid of quotas will help. We will not be in a situation where
- EB2 is current for ROW and unavailable for India.
- EB3 is in year 2005 for ROW and stuck in 2001 for India

Adding more visas is a legislative process. Applying per country quota is as
per DOL’s discretion.

maalelsi
02-12-2008, 07:09 PM
:DI just got home from work and logged in and I thought I was dreaming !!!!!
My priority date is June 2003!!!!! I already have approved petition and AOS. When should I be expeting my GC in the mail considering no need to wait for FBI check any more ?

kaisersose
02-12-2008, 07:15 PM
To fix the problem for everybody need both (1) increase in visa numbers and (2) remove/increase country quota, IMHO.

Only India and China & one or two more countries will support the removal of country limit. The rest of the world will actually oppopse this move as it will have a negative impact on their processing times greatly.

There was a discussion on this on sometime ago.

walking_dude
02-12-2008, 07:26 PM
Wake up, buddy. This is IV. Not !

Removal of Country caps was, is and will be one of the top agendas of IV , whether beneficiaries of a discriminatory system like you support it or not. It's morally and ethically repugnant to see discrimination based on country of birth in the 21st century. Just because it benefits some like you, it doesn't become right.

Employability has nothing to do with Country of Birth. When we are selected based on merit, skill and education by our employer, why should we suffer just because we are born in the wrong country?

It's time to throw away this last vestige of discrimination inherited from the previous centuries and move to a future where every individual is valued for what he/she is individually and not based on whether he was born in India or Sri Lanka.



Only India and China & one or two more countries will support the removal of country limit. The rest of the world will actually oppopse this move as it will have a negative impact on their processing times greatly.

There was a discussion on this on sometime ago.

abhijitp
02-12-2008, 07:36 PM
No matter which side you are on, the quota system sucks. Period.

1) Once you start receiving benefits out of being born in a particular country/ race/ sex/ religion, a notion of "entitlement" quickly builds up within you. This adversely affects your ability to perform, for you just don't have to work hard enough!
2) If you are punished for being born in a particular country/ race/ sex/ religion, you have no incentive to perform, as you won't get what you deserve no matter how hard you work!

How about this... during every Olympics, most number of Gold Medals are won by Americans. Now imagine a rule that prevents more than 7% of all Gold Medals going to people born in any one country. How does that sound?

I will myself hate it if athletes from India (who haven't won anything in the Olympics till date) started winning gold medals simply because other countries cannot receive more than 7%!

Of course, removing country caps will face opposition, but it should still happen, just because it is the right thing!

styrum
02-12-2008, 07:51 PM
:DI just got home from work and logged in and I thought I was dreaming !!!!!
My priority date is June 2003!!!!! I already have approved petition and AOS. When should I be expeting my GC in the mail considering no need to wait for FBI check any more ?

Hold your horses, brother. Remember that the official position of USCIS now is: "Oh we got so many applications last June-August, that it will be by the end of 2010 when maybe we will return to processing times we had before last summer". So now even with PD current I don't even know anymore when we actually will get it. Also remember that there are rumors they threw people onto processing citizenship applications because that issue got some public visibility. Guess from where they took thos adjudicators. You are right - from 485 processing.:cool:

JunRN
02-12-2008, 08:14 PM
We are all expecting that the VB will go back to June 2007 figure...it looks like that RoW has been so fast in getting the latest PD back which could come in a very few months time.

I was not expecting this to come too soon but in June 2008.

abhijitp
02-12-2008, 08:32 PM
We are all expecting that the VB will go back to June 2007 figure...it looks like that RoW has been so fast in getting the latest PD back which could come in a very few months time.

I was not expecting this to come too soon but in June 2008.

We are???? I am not expecting a C against all categories ever again! If anything can move the dates significantly, it is things like recapturing of unused visa numbers. Oh BTW, did you send your letter?

JunRN
02-12-2008, 08:55 PM
We are???? I am not expecting a C against all categories ever again! If anything can move the dates significantly, it is things like recapturing of unused visa numbers. Oh BTW, did you send your letter?

I am not saying "C" nor am I saying "July 2007 VB". I am talking about "June 2007 VB". It is just a matter of time when we can see the VB back to June 2007 figure again.

I can assure you that I have done my part without telling anyone. I am a silent doer.

hazishak
02-12-2008, 09:21 PM
I understand that per country cap is painful for certain countries. But i think they want the employment based immigrant community to be as versatile as possible. I have never heard someone complaining about the DV program where certain countries are not allowed to participate. The reason behind is that they want people from all over the world not just from certain parts of the world.

kuhelica2000
02-12-2008, 09:21 PM
Per country limit applies to every country in exactly the same way. It doesn't discriminate between Chad or China. So, how is it discrimination? And think about it- in Olympics soccer/basketball every country can send only one team. Should China and India be allowed to send more teams since they have a larger population? We should try to increase the number of GCs.

No matter which side you are on, the quota system sucks. Period.

1) Once you start receiving benefits out of being born in a particular country/ race/ sex/ religion, a notion of "entitlement" quickly builds up within you. This adversely affects your ability to perform, for you just don't have to work hard enough!
2) If you are punished for being born in a particular country/ race/ sex/ religion, you have no incentive to perform, as you won't get what you deserve no matter how hard you work!

How about this... during every Olympics, most number of Gold Medals are won by Americans. Now imagine a rule that prevents more than 7% of all Gold Medals going to people born in any one country. How does that sound?

I will myself hate it if athletes from India (who haven't won anything in the Olympics till date) started winning gold medals simply because other countries cannot receive more than 7%!

Of course, removing country caps will face opposition, but it should still happen, just because it is the right thing!

mallu
02-12-2008, 09:37 PM
http://www.state.gov/s/inr/rls/4250.htm

sroyc
02-12-2008, 09:44 PM
I don't think Abhijit chose the right analogy, so your response to that makes sense.

India and China are not sending multiple skilled-immigrant teams to the US. They have come here on their own either to work or study and they are being hired by American companies on the basis of merit, same as everyone else.

Other than the fact that there is a large talent pool of high-tech workers in India and China, there's nothing that stops them for hiring more skilled immigrants from other countries.

If the US truly believes in a quota system for employment based immigration, it should reflect in the workforce first. Enforce the quota system while issuing F1/H1 visas. Then you will also ensure true diversity (only among immigrants) in the workforce.

What you have is two classes of immigrant workers in the same company - those who belong to retrogressed categories and those who are not, with similar qualifications and with similar roles. The difference is that in a few years, the workers who get the green card sooner will have the ability to pursue other opportunities while the other class of workers grind away. With the current scenario, a future colleague from a ROW country can join 6-8 years after me and still get the green card ahead of me. How can you say that it is not discrimination?

If you remove the per country quota, the ROW candidates might have to wait for 3 years instead of 1, but the Indian/Chinese candidates will have to wait for 3 years instead of 8-10. I don't think removing the per country quota will harm ROW folks as much as it'll benefit Indians and Chinese AND it'll ensure fairness.

Per country limit applies to every country in exactly the same way. It doesn't discriminate between Chad or China. So, how is it discrimination? And think about it- in Olympics soccer/basketball every country can send only one team. Should China and India be allowed to send more teams since they have a larger population? We should try to increase the number of GCs.

logiclife
02-12-2008, 10:04 PM
Per country limit applies to every country in exactly the same way. It doesn't discriminate between Chad or China. So, how is it discrimination? And think about it- in Olympics soccer/basketball every country can send only one team. Should China and India be allowed to send more teams since they have a larger population? We should try to increase the number of GCs.

That is an apples to dinosaur analogy.

The per-country ceiling was originally created in order to establish and maintain proportionality in various immigrants coming from different countries in FAMILY BASED IMMIGRATION.

Family based immigration is driven by family relationship. Its not driven by talent or economic contribution. Therefore its important to make sure that no country completely dominates the family based immigration system by getting a head start. If one country is ahead initially in sending immigrants (like the Irish in the 1920s and Italians in 1930s), then that country's immigrants would sponsor their family and that new family would in turn sponsor their relatives and so on. Whichever country has an advantage in the begining would keep building on that advantage and eat up the entire family based quota. That's why when they wrote the INA in 1965 by codifying a bunch of loose federal regulations that governed immigration, they inserted the per-country ceiling. And that makes sense even today in Family based immigration.

Every country in the world has unlimited potential to send family members and relatives to America. But every country in the world does not have unlimited potential to send Ph.Ds and skilled labor. That ability is disproportionately huge with India, China, Mexico and Phillipines.

The per-country ceilings got INHERITED into employment based system because our legislators were too lazy to spot the difference in two systems. One system gives you a green card because you are related to someone. Other system gives you a green card because you have skills that are wanted by an employer here.

Benefits driven by family relationship should be rationed and given out propotionally because an Irish family, Italian family and a Chinese family all love their families equally and the value of family re-unification is the same. You cant say that the Irish love their sibilings more than the Chinese or Indians do. HENCE THE COUNTRY LIMITS IN FAMILY BASED SYSTEM.


But in employment based system, what the system is doing is that an Irish guy, (or any ROW guy) with Bachelor's degree in EB3 is getting green card sooner than an Indian guy or Chinese guy with masters degree in EB2. THAT IS DISCRIMINATION. Yes, that is discrimination not matter how you slice it and dice it with your olympic analogies.

vivekm1309
02-12-2008, 10:12 PM
That is an apples to dinosaur analogy.

The per-country ceiling was originally created in order to establish and maintain proportionality in various immigrants coming from different countries in FAMILY BASED IMMIGRATION.

Family based immigration is driven by family relationship. Its not driven by talent or economic contribution. Therefore its important to make sure that no country completely dominates the family based immigration system by getting a head start. If one country is ahead initially in sending immigrants (like the Irish in the 1920s and Italians in 1930s), then that country's immigrants would sponsor their family and that new family would in turn sponsor their relatives and so on. Whichever country has an advantage in the begining would keep building on that advantage and eat up the entire family based quota. That's why when they wrote the INA in 1965 by codifying a bunch of loose federal regulations that governed immigration, they inserted the per-country ceiling. And that makes sense even today in Family based immigration.

Every country in the world has unlimited potential to send family members and relatives to America. But every country in the world does not have unlimited potential to send Ph.Ds and skilled labor. That ability is disproportionately huge with India, China, Mexico and Phillipines.

The per-country ceilings got INHERITED into employment based system because our legislators were too lazy to spot the difference in two systems. One system gives you a green card because you are related to someone. Other system gives you a green card because you have skills that are wanted by an employer here.

Benefits driven by family relationship should be rationed and given out propotionally because an Irish family, Italian family and a Chinese family all love their families equally and the value of family re-unification is the same. You cant say that the Irish love their sibilings more than the Chinese or Indians do. HENCE THE COUNTRY LIMITS IN FAMILY BASED SYSTEM.


But in employment based system, what the system is doing is that an Irish guy, (or any ROW guy) with Bachelor's degree in EB3 is getting green card sooner than an Indian guy or Chinese guy with masters degree in EB2. THAT IS DISCRIMINATION. Yes, that is discrimination not matter how you slice it and dice it with your olympic analogies.

Agreed this is discrimination, what stops us from fighting this discrimination using legal class action lawsuit? Is it the money required or did a lawsuit fail earlier that inhibits us to file class action lawsuit?

andy garcia
02-12-2008, 10:30 PM
Agreed this is discrimination, what stops us from fighting this discrimination using legal class action lawsuit? Is it the money required or did a lawsuit fail earlier that inhibits us to file class action lawsuit?

It is the law. You can try to sue congress.

INA: ACT 202 - NUMERICAL LIMITATION TO ANY SINGLE FOREIGN STATE
(a) Per Country Level. -

(1) Nondiscrimination. -

(A) Except as specifically provided in paragraph (2) no person shall receive any preference or priority or be discriminated against in the issuance of an IV because of the person's race, sex, nationality, place of birth, or place of residence.

(B) Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to limit the authority of the Secretary of State to determine the procedures for the processing of IV applications or the locations where such applications will be processed.

(2) Per country levels for family-sponsored and employment-based immigrants. - Subject to 1a/ paragraphs (3), (4), and (5) the total number of IVs made available to natives of any single foreign state or dependent area under subsections (a) and (b) of section 203 in any FY may not exceed 7 percent (in the case of a single foreign state) or 2 percent (in the case of a dependent area) of the total number of such visas made available under such subsections in that fiscal year.

(3) Exception if additional visas available. - If because of the application of paragraph (2) with respect to one or more foreign states or dependent areas, the total number of visas available under both subsections (a) and (b) of section 203 for a calendar quarter exceeds the number of qualified immigrants who otherwise may be issued such a visa, paragraph (2) shall not apply to visas made available to such states or areas during the remainder of such calendar quarter.

chintu25
02-12-2008, 10:33 PM
:confused:I apologize for my ignorance but
what is ROW ??

prinive
02-12-2008, 10:36 PM
ROW - Rest of World

:confused:I apologize for my ignorance but
what is ROW ??

chintu25
02-12-2008, 10:47 PM
i see people making assumptions based on ROW..... Please explain how ROW dates affect India/China Dates ??
:confused:

lazycis
02-12-2008, 11:06 PM
:confused:I apologize for my ignorance but
what is ROW ??

A row — also called a record or tuple—represents a single, implicitly structured data item in a table :) (I think the discussion becomes too hot, time to cool down, folks. The solution is not to remove per country limits, but to increase EB quota or at least to recapture lost visa numbers. Fight for removing per country limits will divide IV and is very unlikely to achieve something.)

chmur
02-13-2008, 12:05 AM
Some of the events in the last week seem to indicate so ??

1. Writeoff FBI namechecks pending for > 180 Days
2. Moving EB3 dates in smaller increments . Eb3 India was moved by ~3 Months


Step 1 was crucial because this will enable USCIS to approve all the applications within 'Current Dates'. Atleast now, USCIS will know pretty clearly where they stand when they move the dates (in conjunction with DOS) , unlike last June fiasco.

Step 2 ; Moving the dates in reasonable increments indicates they do not want to loose control of approval process . Lot of 2003 /04 filers got GC's in last July at the cost 2001/2002 filers . It was obviously arbitrary once they made everything current and probably depended on how eager an officer was to grab those visa numbers for his /her cases. USCIS lost control over the process.


Regarding EB2 heart burn - Blame it on substitute filers, obviously most of the line breakers would have used EB2 rather than EB3. But I think eventually EB2 will get higher priority and move faster then EB3 once the Unused numbers from others categories gets distributed after June /July. Calm your nerves.


I only wish if they had streamlined the process in this fashion about 3-4 years back . We would have not lost 200,000 visas and most of the dates would have been current or at the most 2 years behind. Very reasonable.

Am I dreaming....has USCIS got it's act together??


I forget , IV was not around 3-4 years back.


But we cannot be too enthusiastic about these good news because unless those 200,000 numbers are recaptured the dates will soon get struck in near future .

lord_labaku
02-13-2008, 01:32 AM
Before the Y2K problem, the most common route for Indians to migrate to the US (EB category) was this -->

TOEFL
GRE
Admission into US university (most likely for masters)
Scholarship or loan
MS/Phd in US
Internship using OPT
Job/ H1

Since this involved multiple non trivial steps; the barrier for entry was pretty high that prevented mass migration.

There were procedural delays (in some states with a lot of Indian population ( oh yeah; labor certs used to take 3-5 years esp in California, Texas & Northeast; but you could get labor cert faster in south dakota or such less densely populated places; but once you hit the 485 stage, you were certain of a GC within a few months )

And then along with Y2K came TCS, Wipro, Infosys, & infinite other bodyshops that suddenly changed the equation. No need for TOEFL, GRE. No need to fight for scholarship; no need for TA. no need for RA; no need for MS; in a lot of cases, no need for even UG degree in computers/engg. The requirements ranged from having all 10 fingers in place to knowing the right people in the bodyshop company to land an assignment in the US. Once placed at a client site, it was just a matter of finding the right opportunity to get the client to sponsor your H1. I am sure there were a lot other ways the H1 & L1 visas were abused.

So the situation changed from just procedural delays to procedural delays + extra influx of Indians due to H1/L1 visa misuse.

Ofcourse, we can only blame the inefficiencies of the USCIS/INS/DOL system & silently turn the other way when malpractices & visa abuse were rampant (I guess still is) in the IT bodyshop industry.

I am sure this rant will seem extremely prejudicial. But just for a slight moment; think about why all this happened.

CADude
02-13-2008, 02:15 AM
it's classic problem of supply demand and least resistance path.

USCIS provides 3K/each category Visa# per country. What ever USCIS will do you can't fit 200K application in 9K/annum visa#.

Last 3 years(since dec 2005) - EB3 India PD is beyond May 08 2001 only for three months and EB2 is enjoying the benefits of GC. Anyone noticed. NONE. So what happened, many EB3 choosen for convert to EB2 path. Now EB2 India is U so many guys degree with PhD, etc trying for EB1. It human nature and nothing wrong with it. Everyone wants GC ASAP.

So bottomline, Demand is very high compare to Supply. unless USCIS get significant visa# nothing will change.

abhijitp
02-13-2008, 02:23 AM
Per country limit applies to every country in exactly the same way. It doesn't discriminate between Chad or China. So, how is it discrimination? And think about it- in Olympics soccer/basketball every country can send only one team. Should China and India be allowed to send more teams since they have a larger population? We should try to increase the number of GCs.

Do not evade the question, is it okay to limit the number of gold medals per country to 7% of all? Talk about athletics or swimming, not soccer. Do you believe there are "too many" swimmers from Australia or the USA in every Olympics? It just does not seem right... the quota system kills competitive spirit.

As Logiclife said in his post, EB GC inherited country caps from Family Based GC program. They are inappropriate in an EB GC scenario, and should be removed, that's it!

abhijitp
02-13-2008, 02:25 AM
I am not saying "C" nor am I saying "July 2007 VB". I am talking about "June 2007 VB". It is just a matter of time when we can see the VB back to June 2007 figure again.

I can assure you that I have done my part without telling anyone. I am a silent doer.

But even that is not a possibility this year, IMHO.
Thanks for your efforts!

franklin
02-13-2008, 02:45 AM
Do not evade the question, is it okay to limit the number of gold medals per country to 7% of all? Talk about athletics or swimming, not soccer. Do you believe there are "too many" swimmers from Australia or the USA in every Olympics? It just does not seem right... the quota system kills competitive spirit.

Ethnicity has nothing to do with skill level. Consider this also, if no other countries come close to the 7% limit, but India and China are maxed out. Guess who loses just because of an arbitrary limit? Guess where those unused greencards go?

They go to a pile of greencards, left unused and wasted. Wash, rinse, repeat the same cycle year on year. June 07 will be a looooooong way away (if you are from a severely retrogressed country), don't kid yourself.

btw... i was agreeing with abhijitp.

lazycis
02-13-2008, 10:06 AM
I agree that quota system is cumbersome. It would've been much easier just to have one bucket. But I fail to see how it is discriminatory when every coutry gets an equal piece of the pie. It is a classic supply and demand issue, but it's not a discrimination. Consider also the fact that GC is a grace not a right. "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?"

senthil1
02-13-2008, 10:11 AM
I think unused other country quota is used for oversubscribed countries like India and china in the last quarter. If that is true then even removing country quota will not make much difference for Eb3. Now waiting time is 7 years. It will be 5 years for all the countries. When they remove country quota persons from countries like Europe may lose interest in applying gc as they may think is not worth for them to apply and wait 5 years or more as there is not much difference in lifestyle between US and Europe. I doubt US will remove country cap. But we never know as world changes fast nowadays.Anyhow country quota is not correct and it is similar to reservation in India. If reservation concept is correct then country quota is correct as every country in world get benefit.


Ethnicity has nothing to do with skill level. Consider this also, if no other countries come close to the 7% limit, but India and China are maxed out. Guess who loses just because of an arbitrary limit? Guess where those unused greencards go?

They go to a pile of greencards, left unused and wasted. Wash, rinse, repeat the same cycle year on year. June 07 will be a looooooong way away (if you are from a severely retrogressed country), don't kid yourself.

btw... i was agreeing with abhijitp.

grupak
02-13-2008, 11:02 AM
I agree that quota system is cumbersome. It would've been much easier just to have one bucket. But I fail to see how it is discriminatory when every coutry gets an equal piece of the pie. It is a classic supply and demand issue, but it's not a discrimination. Consider also the fact that GC is a grace not a right. "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?"

Forget discrimination, unfairness, etc.

First, everyone agrees that IV is working to remove backlog in the employment-based GC.

Then just removing the country cap is not going to help as there isn't enough visa to go around. Second, just increasing the visa numbers is not going to help without removing/significantly increasing the country cap as most employment-based GC demands are from a few countries.

IV is not the place to argue about 'us' and 'them' in EB GC. IV is to help all EB GC without discrimination based on country of birth, national origin, etc., so IV fights for (1) increasing GC numbers and (2) removing cap/significantly increasing cap.

There is no way around it if we want to remove backlog in EB GC.

kuhelica2000
02-13-2008, 11:06 AM
I couldn't agree more with you. The limited number of GC is definitely a critical factor. But we have contributed to this mess ourselves. Look what happened with EB2 India. Did India started producing EB2 talents overnight? No; rather we started polishing our resumes with inflated years of experience and job description so that we can apply to EB2. The system is too liberal and based on trust. If employers start scrutinizing resumes and certificates a lot of applicants will simply drop off from the GC queue.

Before the Y2K problem, the most common route for Indians to migrate to the US (EB category) was this -->

TOEFL
GRE
Admission into US university (most likely for masters)
Scholarship or loan
MS/Phd in US
Internship using OPT
Job/ H1

Since this involved multiple non trivial steps; the barrier for entry was pretty high that prevented mass migration.

There were procedural delays (in some states with a lot of Indian population ( oh yeah; labor certs used to take 3-5 years esp in California, Texas & Northeast; but you could get labor cert faster in south dakota or such less densely populated places; but once you hit the 485 stage, you were certain of a GC within a few months )

And then along with Y2K came TCS, Wipro, Infosys, & infinite other bodyshops that suddenly changed the equation. No need for TOEFL, GRE. No need to fight for scholarship; no need for TA. no need for RA; no need for MS; in a lot of cases, no need for even UG degree in computers/engg. The requirements ranged from having all 10 fingers in place to knowing the right people in the bodyshop company to land an assignment in the US. Once placed at a client site, it was just a matter of finding the right opportunity to get the client to sponsor your H1. I am sure there were a lot other ways the H1 & L1 visas were abused.

So the situation changed from just procedural delays to procedural delays + extra influx of Indians due to H1/L1 visa misuse.

Ofcourse, we can only blame the inefficiencies of the USCIS/INS/DOL system & silently turn the other way when malpractices & visa abuse were rampant (I guess still is) in the IT bodyshop industry.

I am sure this rant will seem extremely prejudicial. But just for a slight moment; think about why all this happened.

NKR
02-13-2008, 11:16 AM
I couldn't agree more with you. The limited number of GC is definitely a critical factor. But we have contributed to this mess ourselves. Look what happened with EB2 India. Did India started producing EB2 talents overnight? No; rather we started polishing our resumes with inflated years of experience and job description so that we can apply to EB2. The system is too liberal and based on trust. If employers start scrutinizing resumes and certificates a lot of applicants will simply drop off from the GC queue.

I do not fully agree with you. There could be inflated years on a resume but for EB2 one needs to provide experience letters showing five plus years experience. Not many companies give out false information in the experience letters.

chintu25
02-13-2008, 11:21 AM
Agreed this is discrimination, what stops us from fighting this discrimination using legal class action lawsuit? Is it the money required or did a lawsuit fail earlier that inhibits us to file class action lawsuit?


I agree with some senior members when they say that no one individual will come forward for the lawsuit . And I ask why should they ??

And I think, even if one single or 2-3 people do come forward it will not be possible.

This is the reason we have forums like our IV so that all can come together and take a decisive step together
.

Who can stop IV to file a lawsuit USCIS ? NO ONE

Many members went on blabbering about how long the process is and how expensive it is ... REMINDER if we can come together and collect upwards of 35k FOR "Lobbying Efforts" we can definitely collect funds for a lawsuit.

Some one here rightly said ...If we are retrogessed and there is a queue ..Is it because of you or me ?? NO it is due to the inefficiency of the USCIS.


NO ROAD IS EASY IN THIS BATTLE..... AND ALL OPTIONS SHOULD BE EXPLORED

Again , I want to reiterate , I think if IV core takes lead...hires a good attorney ....we will have funds for it....we have proved it in the past that IVians can contribute

rghangrekar
02-13-2008, 11:26 AM
I cannot agree more with the posts from lord_labaku and kuhelica2000. In 2000, during the startup boom I used to work with so-called "experts" in say java that would have a inflated resume, but absolutely no knowledge of what is happening. I am sure based on how their resume was structured, all of them are in the EB2 queue (I am in EB3 BTW). Last year in Nov, a group of us were talking about GC wait times when a friend who was about to apply for labor quoted..."but I do not need to worry, I am applying in Eb2". I have seen posts on this site where people have solely focussed on EB2. If EB2 becomes current, then these dudes would stop supporting IV....

Removing the limited quota per country seems to be the ideal solution. But it would help if we do not focus only on the category our application is in. It would help if , after some of us get our GC, we still continue our support for IV.

ItIsNotFunny
02-13-2008, 11:50 AM
I cannot agree more with the posts from lord_labaku and kuhelica2000. In 2000, during the startup boom I used to work with so-called "experts" in say java that would have a inflated resume, but absolutely no knowledge of what is happening. I am sure based on how their resume was structured, all of them are in the EB2 queue (I am in EB3 BTW). Last year in Nov, a group of us were talking about GC wait times when a friend who was about to apply for labor quoted..."but I do not need to worry, I am applying in Eb2". I have seen posts on this site where people have solely focussed on EB2. If EB2 becomes current, then these dudes would stop supporting IV....

Removing the limited quota per country seems to be the ideal solution. But it would help if we do not focus only on the category our application is in. It would help if , after some of us get our GC, we still continue our support for IV.

Be careful what you are talking on public forum.

Please also keep in mind, some personal experience can not be generalized.

Pegasus503
02-13-2008, 11:51 AM
I am curious,

while searching the forum I found this thread tucked away under



Immigration Voice > Immigration Voice Issues and Congressional updates > Sept 18th Rally: Car-pooling, Group Reservations for Air travel, hotel etc. > March VB is out!!!!!!!!!!



it just seemed to be a strange folder structure for newbies to find....


I'm not being critical, just confused

kaisersose
02-13-2008, 12:03 PM
Wake up, buddy. This is IV. Not !

Removal of Country caps was, is and will be one of the top agendas of IV , whether beneficiaries of a discriminatory system like you support it or not. It's morally and ethically repugnant to see discrimination based on country of birth in the 21st century. Just because it benefits some like you, it doesn't become right.

Employability has nothing to do with Country of Birth. When we are selected based on merit, skill and education by our employer, why should we suffer just because we are born in the wrong country?

It's time to throw away this last vestige of discrimination inherited from the previous centuries and move to a future where every individual is valued for what he/she is individually and not based on whether he was born in India or Sri Lanka.

Dude,

Read my post again.

I am not saying it is a bad thing (not for us desis). All I am saying is *every* country in ROW will oppose removing country cap and they have explicitly said so on . They would have said as much here too, if we had more diversity on this forum.

It is not about right or wrong, ti is just the way it is. The UK guy can come in to the US today for employment and can have a GC in a year or two. Why on earth will he support a change that will push him into a 10 year queue?

The point is, we should know where we stand when we are taking up removal of country cap. Unlike the other changes whic hare benefical to all GC aspirants, this is one change that will be opposed by several GC aspirants.

NolaIndian32
02-13-2008, 12:09 PM
What is ROW and POW, please? I have seen both used in several posts (I am hoping POW is not Prisoner of War:)) Still learning the immigration lingo!

chintu25
02-13-2008, 12:14 PM
Yeah I had the same confusion
ROW IS REST OF THE WORLD

Lasantha
02-13-2008, 12:19 PM
There's no POW at least where this topic is concerned. Somebody said that as a joke. ROW of course as Chintu said is Rest Of the World

What is ROW and POW, please? I have seen both used in several posts (I am hoping POW is not Prisoner of War:)) Still learning the immigration lingo!

NKR
02-13-2008, 12:24 PM
What is ROW and POW, please? I have seen both used in several posts (I am hoping POW is not Prisoner of War:)) Still learning the immigration lingo!

There is no such thing as POW in immigration. I was kidding when I said that. With immigration mess I am feeling like one POW (prisoner of war).

There is limit on visa numbers allocated to each country, So retrogression has affected people from India, China, Mexico and Philliphines more since the maximum number of people applying for EB category GC are from these 4 countries and . "Rest of the World - ROW" refers to any country which is not the above four countries.

lotsofspace
02-13-2008, 12:26 PM
I understand that per country cap is painful for certain countries. But i think they want the employment based immigrant community to be as versatile as possible. I have never heard someone complaining about the DV program where certain countries are not allowed to participate. The reason behind is that they want people from all over the world not just from certain parts of the world.

What part of "Diversity Visa" don't you understand ? The objective there was and is "DIVERSITY" and therefore it make sense (albeit a limited one).

Why should there be a restriction based on COB for employment based visas ? Do you think the Govt can dictate companies to recruit only so many people from different demographies ? I guess not.

Thank God there is no such restriction on H1.

I know it sucks for guys from ROW to be treated on par with ICMP quartet. But is only fair to be treated equally at least in EB categories.

As many have suggested before, this removal of quota in it self will not solve the immigration problem. But is is fair and equitable in my opinion. And the opinion generally is different based on what side of the fence you are on. Recapture and increase of the annual limit to a more reasonable number is the correct solution.

Although it may be kind of wishful thinking from the ICMP quartet to get this per country limitation removed, I personally feel the odds of that happening or very low. So guys from ROW, please chill. You are probably alright. Removing the world hunger is the right thing , but that is not going to happen. Some people continue to eat mud cakes to kill the hunger (This is a true story. I read an article recently).


Most problems in the past have been resolved by not improving/patching the current system/source but by paradigm and systematic shifts. The root of the problem at the conceptual level is the demand for these visas from these countries. If the India and China continue their current growth rate for the next decade, they probably don't need this many visas :) who knows :).
But for now this is a problem for all of us who are struck in this nightmare.

lotsofspace
02-13-2008, 12:59 PM
I agree that quota system is cumbersome. It would've been much easier just to have one bucket. But I fail to see how it is discriminatory when every coutry gets an equal piece of the pie. It is a classic supply and demand issue, but it's not a discrimination. Consider also the fact that GC is a grace not a right. "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?"

The problem here not every country gets equal or equitable piece of pie. The probelm is Part of the pie gets thrown out and not given to people in the line because too many of them happen to be from one country.

kuhelica2000
02-13-2008, 01:02 PM
That is absolutely not true. Unused visas from under subscribed countries are made available to over subscribed countries.

kaisersose
02-13-2008, 01:07 PM
I think the US government wanted it this way.

Back in the 19th century then experienced phases where too many Irish came into the country in waves and then too many Chinese - both of which did not go down well with Americans raising Xenophobia to new levels and causing trouble for the immigrants .

This is why they decided to get an even mix of people from all countries and prevent a surge of people from any one country. They have no reason not to apply the same logic for the employment category.

Like an ROW person said on another forum, Indians will find any number of reasons to support removal of country cap, but we can find an equal number of reasons to retain country cap.

Leaving aside the difference of opinion between Indians and ROWs on this topic, we should also look at which side Americans are inclined to take. Based on History, they would actually side with ROWs on this one.

immigrationvoice1
02-13-2008, 01:17 PM
That is absolutely not true. Unused visas from under subscribed countries are made available to over subscribed countries.

And how do you support that argument please ?

grupak
02-13-2008, 01:24 PM
For those who do not see the unfairness because of country of origin, here is a scenario:

Your colleague and friend work in the same company as you, have similar qualification. Both of you apply for the GC around the same time, you get it years maybe decade sooner and can move onto a higher position, maybe better job. Your friend is still stuck at the same position even though he has been a good worker and should have been promoted in an ideal situation.

We are here not because of our country of origin but because of our employment. So, lets not get into 'us' and 'them'. We are all skilled-employees, and that's what IV represents.

A system that holds back employees for years because of country of origin instead of job performance is clearly broken. IV is fighting to fix it.

(1) Increasing the visa numbers and (2) removing/increasing cap is only the solution.

voldemar
02-13-2008, 01:25 PM
And how do you support that argument please ?
It's in the law. Read INA before going to bed.

lazycis
02-13-2008, 01:26 PM
The problem here not every country gets equal or equitable piece of pie. The probelm is Part of the pie gets thrown out and not given to people in the line because too many of them happen to be from one country.

How about facts? In 2006, Philippines received 23,733 EB visas, India - 17,169. No other country received more. China received 9,484.

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/yearbook/2006/table10d.xls

akred
02-13-2008, 01:36 PM
I think the US government wanted it this way.


Yes. Racial exclusion and preference for European immigration has a long history in US immigration law.

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/immigr09.htm

lazycis
02-13-2008, 01:38 PM
And how do you support that argument please ?

8 USC 1152(a)

(2) Per country levels for family-sponsored and employment-based immigrants
Subject to paragraphs (3), (4), and (5), the total number of immigrant visas made available to natives of any single foreign state or dependent area under subsections (a) and (b) of section 1153 of this title in any fiscal year may not exceed 7 percent (in the case of a single foreign state) or 2 percent (in the case of a dependent area) of the total number of such visas made available under such subsections in that fiscal year.

(3) Exception if additional visas available
If because of the application of paragraph (2) with respect to one or more foreign states or dependent areas, the total number of visas available under both subsections (a) and (b) of section 1153 of this title for a calendar quarter exceeds the number of qualified immigrants who otherwise may be issued such a visa, paragraph (2) shall not apply to visas made available to such states or areas during the remainder of such calendar quarter.

5) Rules for employment-based immigrants
(A) Employment-based immigrants not subject to per country limitation if additional visas available
If the total number of visas available under paragraph (1), (2), (3), (4), or (5) of section 1153 (b) of this title for a calendar quarter exceeds the number of qualified immigrants who may otherwise be issued such visas, the visas made available under that paragraph shall be issued without regard to the numerical limitation under paragraph (2) of this subsection during the remainder of the calendar quarter.
(B) Limiting fall across for certain countries subject to subsection (e) of this section
In the case of a foreign state or dependent area to which subsection (e) of this section applies, if the total number of visas issued under section 1153 (b) of this title exceeds the maximum number of visas that may be made available to immigrants of the state or area under section 1153 (b) of this title consistent with subsection (e) of this section (determined without regard to this paragraph), in applying subsection (e) of this section all visas shall be deemed to have been required for the classes of aliens specified in section 1153 (b) of this title.

walking_dude
02-13-2008, 01:59 PM
On the contrary, fight for keeping the country limits will kill the movement as Indians who form more than 80% of IV will feel disillusioned and leave. Once that happens ROW can as well kiss the GC increase good bye.

Like grupak mentioned real workable solution is 1) Increase overall numbers (will benefit ROW as well as oversubscribed countries) 2) Eliminate the meaningless country quota. If there is an increase in overall numbers removal of country quotas will have very low impact on ROW. This is the fact.

But there are still some fanatics who pick up fights to keep the country quotas intact. If all of them quit IV damage will still be minimum, when compared to Indians (80% of IV) leaving. Movement will survive and thrive. How many ROW were there at DC rally? Of those present, half were on the stage. Of course I'm exaggerating, but not by much.

My challenge to ROW members who keep on harping about the split in the movement - PARTICIPATE!! Just being active on the forum and posting a hundred posts doesn't make you part of the movement. I hardly see many ROW members volunteering or accepting leadership roles. Unlike EB immigration, IV is open to everyone no matter where you were born. We don't have any 7% quota per country ! And yet, why are the active volunteers, leadership, contributors - the REAL movement- is disproportinately Indian.

Want to influence the movement, be a significant part of it. That's real democracy.

A row — also called a record or tuple—represents a single, implicitly structured data item in a table :) (I think the discussion becomes too hot, time to cool down, folks. The solution is not to remove per country limits, but to increase EB quota or at least to recapture lost visa numbers. Fight for removing per country limits will divide IV and is very unlikely to achieve something.)

Googler
02-13-2008, 02:01 PM
The problem here not every country gets equal or equitable piece of pie. The probelm is Part of the pie gets thrown out and not given to people in the line because too many of them happen to be from one country.

How about facts? In 2006, Philippines received 23,733 EB visas, India - 17,169. No other country received more. China received 9,484.

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/yearbook/2006/table10d.xls

One thing to note in this dicussion is that this reallocation to oversubscribed countries is far from seamless. If cutoff dates for oversubscribed countries are not moved up in the 3rd quarter (as opposed to the fourth quarter of the fiscal year), part of the pie DOES get thrown out, as it has in recent years 2003 (88.4K), 2004 (47,3K), 2006 (10.2k) [see 2007 Ombudsmans Report, p. 34 which gives the data for these years and going back to 1992]. This is absolutely infuriating since 2003-2004 these were also the years that largely created the present backlog of applicants with early PDs. How on earth can you justify throwing out 10.2K greencards in 2006 (FY 2007) EVEN AFTER the June 2007 greencard free for all??

lazycis
02-13-2008, 02:11 PM
WDude, Googler, I am not against removing per country limits. But we need to have a cool head, think straight, objective and use facts. I just think it will be next to impossible to change the INA to remove those quotas so it's better to concentrate efforts on 1) visa recapture; 2) EB quota increase. Visas were lost mostly because of NC issue.

kuhelica2000
02-13-2008, 02:15 PM
Finally you hit the nail on its head. That’s why the per country limit is there so no one country with larger population can monopolize any agenda the way you are trying to do with IV.

On the contrary, fight for keeping the country limits will kill the movement as Indians who form more than 80% of IV will feel disillusioned and leave. Once that happens ROW can as well kiss the GC increase good bye.

Like grupak mentioned real workable solution is 1) Increase overall numbers (will benefit ROW as well as oversubscribed countries) 2) Eliminate the meaningless country quota. If there is an increase in overall numbers removal of country quotas will have very low impact on ROW. This is the fact.

But there are still some fanatics who pick up fights to keep the country quotas intact. If all of them quit IV damage will still be minimum, when compared to Indians (80% of IV) leaving. Movement will survive and thrive. How many ROW were there at DC rally? Of those present, half were on the stage. Of course I'm exaggerating, but not by much.

My challenge to ROW members who keep on harping about the split in the movement - PARTICIPATE!! Just being active on the forum and posting a hundred posts doesn't make you part of the movement. I hardly see many ROW members volunteering or accepting leadership roles. Unlike EB immigration, IV is open to everyone no matter where you were born. We don't have any 7% quota per country ! And yet, why are the active volunteers, leadership, contributors - the REAL movement- is disproportinately Indian.

Want to influence the movement, be a significant part of it. That's real democracy.

kaisersose
02-13-2008, 02:20 PM
WDude, Googler, I am not against removing per country limits. But we need to have a cool head, think straight, objective and use facts. I just think it will be next to impossible to change the INA to remove those quotas so it's better to concentrate efforts on 1) visa recapture; 2) EB quota increase. Visas were lost mostly because of NC issue.

I think visa recapture is the most likely bet. There is really no reason why anyone would think twice about it.

EB Quota increase is next to impossible. The word "increase" will have many people tune out which will also affect any bundled propositions. One way to avoid this problem is to avoid using the word "increase"; by asking to not count family numbers in the EB quota or to count them in the FB quota. That will result in a huge increase in EB Quota without directly calling it quota increase.

The other provision of allowing 485 applications without current PDs is a bad idea in my opinion. Anyone who enters the country will be eligible for AC21 in 8 months which is about 80% of a GC. Such a provision will result in huge abuse like the L visa and/or Labor substitution.

JunRN
02-13-2008, 02:22 PM
I don't think removing the per country cap will solve the problem. It will balance retrogression by giving each country equal share of misery while the visa number allocation per year stays the same. It also requires changes in the statute which is almost impossible to happen because the legislators, either Dem. or GOP, will not agree to removing the cap. So let's be realistic.

The best solution is to recapture unused visas from previous years and increase the quota per year.

walking_dude
02-13-2008, 02:26 PM
I request you to rise above your tunnel vision of viewing people as Indians, Chinese and ROW. Start thinking about people as individuals. Then you'll see the light.

By stating that through EB immigration one country is monopolizing the 'agenda' (what freaking agenda?), you are just regurgitating the spittle thrown by racist organizations like NumbersUSA and StormFront. I don't see any difference between your view and theirs. You both consider us "an invasion"! They are more upfront. You do it in a more subtle way.

I was responding to threats we keep receiving on the forum that somehow removing the country will split the movement. Wanted to give some delusioned members a reality check.

Finally you hit the nail on its head. That’s why the per country limit is there so no one country with larger population can monopolize any agenda the way you are trying to do with IV.

grupak
02-13-2008, 02:34 PM
Finally you hit the nail on its head. That’s why the per country limit is there so no one country with larger population can monopolize any agenda the way you are trying to do with IV.

I don't understand this logic. We are talking about employment based GC.

Lets be clear that we are talking about people who are employed in the US and their employers have sponsored their green cards (except the EB2-NIW, EB1_EA). These people are employed because of their skill at jobs not their national origin.

Are you suggesting that somehow people of some countries have monopolized the foreign worker pool by born in the same country and NOT because of their skill.

Since we are talking about a privilege and benefit that comes from being employed in the US, you are actually suggesting that US employers should consider country of birth and not just skill in the employment.

Tell me how did the Chinese, Indian, Mexican and Filipino workers unfairly monopolized the foreign worker pool. As far as I am aware, these countries have large populations and a lot of Science and Engineering graduates happen to be from these countries.

The country cap makes sense in family based immigration system when extended beyond the immediate family members. IV is not for FB GC issues.

Again, employment in the US is based on skill not country of birth. The foreign workers are here because they are needed, and US will benefit by keeping these skilled workers long term. What IV is doing benefits all employment based GC.

walking_dude
02-13-2008, 02:38 PM
It has been repeated 'Ad Nauseam' times. IVs agenda includes all of these -

1) Increasing GC numbers
2) Recapturing numbers and instituting permanent Rollover mechanisms
3) Eliminate country quotas.

IV understands that removing just the country quota will impact ROW badly if visa numbers are not increased in tandem. Hence you always see the three points being proposed together. These 3 have to go together. A compromise between ROW and oversubscribed countries.

But some ROW members keep trying to split the movement by opposing removal of country quotas ( which is point 2 in IV agenda) at every possible opportunity. Real way to build a coalition is through compromise. And in a compromise you can't get all you want. Don't expect the majority to heed all your demands.

Be a little appreciative of the sufferings of others. If you think a little extra time you need to spend in the queue is turning you so angry, what goes in the mind of a person who has to spend twice or thrice as much time in the same queue, for no fault of his/hers?

Don't BS on 'diversity'. There is already a 'diversity visa' which Indians & Chinese cannot use. Want to come under diversity? Apply in the lottery. Be a little humane and think about the suffering of others. May be you'll see the light. You are not going to win many friends by alleging "an agenda by some country". It's preposturous, laughable and Dobbsian ( like Lou Dobbs alleged "invasion by Mexicans")

I don't think removing the per country cap will solve the problem. It will balance retrogression by giving each country equal share of misery while the visa number allocation per year stays the same. It also requires changes in the statute which is almost impossible to happen because the legislators, either Dem. or GOP, will not agree to removing the cap. So let's be realistic.

The best solution is to recapture unused visas from previous years and increase the quota per year.

alisa
02-13-2008, 02:44 PM
Are you suggesting that IV's efforts would increase the wait times for ROW?
What incentive does ROW have to work with IV then?

It has been repeated 'Ad Nauseam' times. IVs agenda includes all of these -

1) Increasing GC numbers
2) Recapturing numbers and instituting permanent Rollover mechanisms
3) Eliminate country quotas.

IV understands that removing just the country quota will impact ROW badly if visa numbers are not increased in tandem. Hence you always see the three points being proposed together. These 3 have to go together. A compromise between ROW and oversubscribed countries.

But some ROW members keep trying to split the movement by opposing removal of country quotas ( which is point 2 in IV agenda) at every possible opportunity. Real way to build a coalition is through compromise. And in a compromise you can't get all you want. Don't expect the majority to heed all your demands.

Be a little appreciative of the sufferings of others. If you think a little extra time you need to spend in the queue is turning you so angry, what goes in the mind of a person who has to spend twice or thrice as much time in the same queue, for no fault of his/hers?

Don't BS on 'diversity'. There is already a 'diversity visa' which Indians & Chinese cannot use. Want to come under diversity? Apply in the lottery. Be a little humane and think about the suffering of others. May be you'll see the light. You are not going to win many friends by alleging "an agenda by some country". It's preposturous, laughable and Dobbsian ( like Lou Dobbs alleged "invasion by Mexicans")

waiting4gc
02-13-2008, 02:53 PM
If you see the entire post, you will see that the agenda is

1) Increasing GC numbers
2) Recapturing numbers and instituting permanent Rollover mechanisms
3) Eliminate country quotas

Part 1 and 2 would help everyone from around the world. While 3 would benefit citizens of a few countries more than others, all it is saying is STOP discriminating in employment based green cards on basis of country of origin. You are not BORN with skills and neither does being born in country A make you more SKILLED than being born in country B.

If you want to see 3 as being the reason to not participate, that you are implicitly condoning discrimination against people born in certain country even though you will benefit equally from 1 and 2.

Are you suggesting that IV's efforts would increase the wait times for ROW?
What incentive does ROW have to work with IV then?

gvenkat
02-13-2008, 02:57 PM
Per country quota is what is killing India/China.. and that is the fact.. on an average ROW person waits for 3 years whereas India/China wait for eons.. as WD said if some one wants diversity go apply for a lottery or for better seek asylum... :mad::mad:

mallu
02-13-2008, 03:00 PM
Well, i see only congress can do it. But still, in the EB skill based immigration that law is barbarian. Do companies find the much needed critical talent based on country of birth ?

kuhelica2000
02-13-2008, 03:01 PM
Grupak, I am not suggesting any single country is monopolizing the foreign worker pool. Employment laws in the US are fairly non-discriminatory except the diversity in workplace or "Affarmative Action" component which prefers a minority when two candidates possess the same skills.

My comment was on someone suggesting moving ahead without the ROW participation since they only comprise 20% of the membership pool.



I don't understand this logic. We are talking about employment based GC.

Lets be clear that we are talking about people who are employed in the US and their employers have sponsored their green cards (except the EB2-NIW, EB1_EA). These people are employed because of their skill at jobs not their national origin.

Are you suggesting that somehow people of some countries have monopolized the foreign worker pool by born in the same country and NOT because of their skill.

Since we are talking about a privilege and benefit that comes from being employed in the US, you are actually suggesting that US employers should consider country of birth and not just skill in the employment.

Tell me how did the Chinese, Indian, Mexican and Filipino workers unfairly monopolized the foreign worker pool. As far as I am aware, these countries have large populations and a lot of Science and Engineering graduates happen to be from these countries.

The country cap makes sense in family based immigration system when extended beyond the immediate family members. IV is not for FB GC issues.

Again, employment in the US is based on skill not country of birth. The foreign workers are here because they are needed, and US will benefit by keeping these skilled workers long term. What IV is doing benefits all employment based GC.

alisa
02-13-2008, 03:04 PM
Is the cumulative effect of all three measures good for me (reduced wait time, or no change in wait time), or bad for me (increased wait time.)?

I read this, and I was referring to this:


If you think a little extra time you need to spend in the queue is turning you so angry, what goes in the mind of a person who has to spend twice or thrice as much time in the same queue, for no fault of his/hers?


So, does recapture and the increase in quota and the removal of the country limits, result in a greater wait time for me, as the comment above seems to imply. It would, if the recapture and the increase are not large enough to offset the effects of the removal of the per-country limit on ROW.

Coz if it does, then I don't have an incentive to support your goals, do I?

If you see the entire post, you will see that the agenda is

1) Increasing GC numbers
2) Recapturing numbers and instituting permanent Rollover mechanisms
3) Eliminate country quotas

Part 1 and 2 would help everyone from around the world. While 3 would benefit citizens of a few countries more than others, all it is saying is STOP discriminating in employment based green cards on basis of country of origin. You are not BORN with skills and neither does being born in country A make you more SKILLED than being born in country B.

If you want to see 3 as being the reason to not participate, that you are implicitly condoning discrimination against people born in certain country even though you will benefit equally from 1 and 2.

GCwaitforever
02-13-2008, 03:07 PM
I couldn't agree more with you. The limited number of GC is definitely a critical factor. But we have contributed to this mess ourselves. Look what happened with EB2 India. Did India started producing EB2 talents overnight? No; rather we started polishing our resumes with inflated years of experience and job description so that we can apply to EB2. The system is too liberal and based on trust. If employers start scrutinizing resumes and certificates a lot of applicants will simply drop off from the GC queue.

Totally disagree with you. People do not inflate their resumes and apply for EB2. There is no need for that for many of us in the profession for more than 10 years already. Besides, it comes under immigration fraud and leads to deportation.

EB2 India is clogged up because people who applied for EB3 five or six years ago switched to EB2 by applying with newly promoted positions and transferring old EB3 priority date.

It all comes down to USCIS/DOL/SWA/BEC processing paper-based cases at tortoise pace and making loads of money for their employees and their pensions. Had they processed cases quickly with electronic processing, EB2 India would not be backlogged like this.

waiting4gc
02-13-2008, 03:12 PM
Again, there are no guarantees which of the 3 will get passed or accepted. 1 & 2 benefit you more than 3. Will be combined effect of those be more than enough to offset 3 (which I doubt will ever happen since that will require a change in law) is up to anyone's imagination.

Will you stop supporting IV which is trying to improve ALL legal immigrants prospects of getting a green card because one item on their agenda MAY DO more harm to you than good is your prerogative.

However, IMHO saying that 3 hurts you and hence you will not support IV is the same as those people who in July were crying because everyone was getting to file 485s and hence would lengthen the GC processing queue. I was in fact not benefiting too much from that but I supported it since having been in the queue for long enough I know how painful it is.

Like lot of other people on this forum said, try to rise above what is GOOD FOR ME and I will only support IV if it does ONLY that. Someday there might be a law that affects you more than the majority and you will need the all legal immigrants voice to help you out.

Is the cumulative effect of all three measures good for me (reduced wait time, or no change in wait time), or bad for me (increased wait time.)?

I read this, and I was referring to this:



So, does recapture and the increase in quota and the removal of the country limits, result in a greater wait time for me, as the comment above seems to imply. It would, if the recapture and the increase are not large enough to offset the effects of the removal of the per-country limit on ROW.

Coz if it does, then I don't have an incentive to support your goals, do I?

mallu
02-13-2008, 03:13 PM
I am eating 3 times a day and looking for the fourth meal. Meanwhile there is a bunch hanging around the kitchen looking for atleast 1 meal a day. The food supply is limited. If i join with those , i might be in a situation of 2 meals a day. Even though justice is done with respect to whole lot, there was some injustice to me. What is then the incentive to work with IV ? Wasn't that the tone of question ?

walking_dude
02-13-2008, 03:16 PM
Are you even reading my posts?!

If visa numbers are increased along with elimination of country quotas ROW will not be impacted significantly. That's what has been posted a hundred times here. Yet, some of you refuse to see reason!

If IV succeeds ROW waiting times will also be significantly reduced due to combination of visa number increase and recapture. That should be the incentive for ROW.

Are you suggesting that IV's efforts would increase the wait times for ROW?
What incentive does ROW have to work with IV then?

walking_dude
02-13-2008, 03:21 PM
To set matters right - all 3 of them will require a change in law. IV is trying to recapture ( pont 2) through Admin fixes, but its not certain. It needs an Exceutive Order from Pres. Bush to happen. Its not 100% certain at this stage that such an EO will be issued.

Again, there are no guarantees which of the 3 will get passed or accepted. 1 & 2 benefit you more than 3. Will be combined effect of those be more than enough to offset 3 (which I doubt will ever happen since that will require a change in law) is up to anyone's imagination.

....

mariusp
02-13-2008, 03:28 PM
What ever gave you the idea that EB ROW only wait for 3 years? There's this common misconception flying around here that somehow ROW just cruises by and we get GC handed to us on a platter when in fact up until yesterday EB-3 ROW was just as retrogressed as any other category not to mention that labor (pre PERM) and name check delays affected ROW just as much as everyone else. For instance, my brother, who is EB3-ROW with a PD of Dec 2002... and has been in the US since early 2000 and is still waiting in line...so do the math.

We're all in this crap together, some worse than others... so let's stop with this ROW Vs India & China nonsense. Country quotas are unfair and frankly the entire GC process is unfair and unpredictable... We should aim for solutions that solve this issue in a comprehensive way, not by dividing us even further.


Per country quota is what is killing India/China.. and that is the fact.. on an average ROW person waits for 3 years whereas India/China wait for eons.. as WD said if some one wants diversity go apply for a lottery or for better seek asylum... :mad::mad:

waiting4gc
02-13-2008, 03:30 PM
Couldn't agree with you more.

What ever gave you the idea that EB ROW only wait for 3 years? There's this common misconception flying around here that somehow ROW just cruises by and we get GC handed to us on a platter when in fact up until yesterday EB-3 ROW was just as retrogressed as any other category not to mention that labor (pre PERM) and name check delays affected ROW just as much as everyone else. For instance, my brother, who is EB3-ROW with a PD of Dec 2002... and has been in the US since early 2000 and is still waiting in line...so do the math.

We're all in this crap together, some worse than others... so let's stop with this ROW Vs India & China nonsense. Country quotas are unfair and frankly the entire GC process is unfair and unpredictable... We should aim for solutions that solve this issue in a comprehensive way, not by dividing us even further.

walking_dude
02-13-2008, 03:32 PM
Where did I say ROW need not participate?!Instead I asked ROW members to participate more actively and become a mainstream component of the movement!

Those ROW members who are part of the IV are supportive of removing country caps. They are satisfied with IVs stand that increase in numbers along with removal of country with benefit all - ROW, Indians, Chinese, Mexicans and Phillipinos. No EB immigrant will be left behind :-)

I'm thankful to every active IV member - ROW, India , China, Mexico or Phillipines who has worked for IVs cause. Those few ROW members who keep harping on the split in IV over country quotas never were/are part of the IV movement (active dedicated members). They just sit on the sidelines and create rifts.



.....
My comment was on someone suggesting moving ahead without the ROW participation since they only comprise 20% of the membership pool.

sammyb
02-13-2008, 03:41 PM
and realizing the issue itself...

we like the American citizens, live in a protectionist mode ... even if we are not getting benefitted but we still want to law in place as this gives some comfort in mind ...

I would ask all those who are opposing the removal of per country cap - for one day only lets switch your shoes with someone who filed his labor in 00 or 01 and see how it feels ... then come here tomorrow and discuss this issue again from the beginning ... you need to feel it to realize the pain...

it won't do any good by arguing against or for a cause which may or may not help you me or someone else ... the whole EB GC process is a mess and someone needs to exert the right push to make this correct ... at today’s date IV is the only organization doing that ... so join hands and do it together ... down the line after ten years you shouldn't feel that you have had the opportunity but you didn't do enough to take care of it...


What ever gave you the idea that EB ROW only wait for 3 years? There's this common misconception flying around here that somehow ROW just cruises by and we get GC handed to us on a platter when in fact up until yesterday EB-3 ROW was just as retrogressed as any other category not to mention that labor (pre PERM) and name check delays affected ROW just as much as everyone else. For instance, my brother, who is EB3-ROW with a PD of Dec 2002... and has been in the US since early 2000 and is still waiting in line...so do the math.

We're all in this crap together, some worse than others... so let's stop with this ROW Vs India & China nonsense. Country quotas are unfair and frankly the entire GC process is unfair and unpredictable... We should aim for solutions that solve this issue in a comprehensive way, not by dividing us even further.

gvenkat
02-13-2008, 03:42 PM
What ever gave you the idea that EB ROW only wait for 3 years?

i said on an average.. and that is the fact.. ROW is way better off than India/China... there are always exceptions...

walking_dude
02-13-2008, 03:43 PM
Are you sure you understood it fully?

I wrote " if you think ", meaning a lot of harping on is happening based on the assumption that removal of country limits will impact ROW badly. It's not the fact. Though it has been explained a number of times that its not the case, some members obstinately stick to their guns and regurgitate it again!

Taking some sentence written by me out-of-context does not prove anything.

Can I ask you a question? How much of IV goals you have supported till date? How many IV activities you have participated? How much you have contributed? I'm interested in knowing. If you haven't , whether you have incentive or not, it doesn't make even a teeny difference to the movement.

Is the cumulative effect of all three measures good for me (reduced wait time, or no change in wait time), or bad for me (increased wait time.)?

I read this, and I was referring to this:



So, does recapture and the increase in quota and the removal of the country limits, result in a greater wait time for me, as the comment above seems to imply. It would, if the recapture and the increase are not large enough to offset the effects of the removal of the per-country limit on ROW.

Coz if it does, then I don't have an incentive to support your goals, do I?

NKR
02-13-2008, 03:43 PM
The other provision of allowing 485 applications without current PDs is a bad idea in my opinion. Anyone who enters the country will be eligible for AC21 in 8 months which is about 80% of a GC. Such a provision will result in huge abuse like the L visa and/or Labor substitution.

On the flip side, Spouses on dependent visas who had plenty of experience and who were stuck for years by not being able to work. The provision to apply for 485 applications in july was god send opportunity.

grupak
02-13-2008, 03:50 PM
Grupak, I am not suggesting any single country is monopolizing the foreign worker pool. Employment laws in the US are fairly non-discriminatory except the diversity in workplace or "Affarmative Action" component which prefers a minority when two candidates possess the same skills.

My comment was on someone suggesting moving ahead without the ROW participation since they only comprise 20% of the membership pool.

WD's comment was in the context of removing country cap.

I know we all say things in jest. However, the only solution is (1) increase visa numbers and (2) remove/significantly increase country cap. Otherwise the problem still remains, and IV will continue to fight for a fix.

xela
02-13-2008, 03:57 PM
What ever gave you the idea that EB ROW only wait for 3 years? There's this common misconception flying around here that somehow ROW just cruises by

YEs all the people I know around me are ROW EB3 and PDs 2002 and 2003 and no GC, so please stop thinking we have it so good!


With regard to the per country limit.....there is only one for the first 3 quaters and it seems like in the last couple of times in the last quater India and Chine and maybe Phillipines did end up getting more GCs than their per country limit, at least I was so informed by my lawyers.

Besides that, immigration is a privilege not a right, so if the US wants diversity and limit per country immigration, it is their right to do so. Before you start being shocked by this, I am NOT saying I do not understand your frustration and the feeling you discriminated against, but rights are rights and we knew that before we started the process. If we can improve it great, if we can't we will just have to deal with it realisticly.

Some EU countries are doing the exact same thing by the way.
I do believe in diversity in any way and shape, and I do not stand for discrimination. I am just trying to face the reality.
I also have days when I wonder about leaving my own country which provided me with a wonderful education and how I am taking away from that country by leaving for my own success? if you don't have days when you feel guilty good for you.

take care

grupak
02-13-2008, 03:58 PM
We're all in this crap together, some worse than others... so let's stop with this ROW Vs India & China nonsense. Country quotas are unfair and frankly the entire GC process is unfair and unpredictable... We should aim for solutions that solve this issue in a comprehensive way, not by dividing us even further.

Well said. We are here only because we want to fix the employment-based GC processes. If I could fix the system on my own I wouldn't be hanging around here. Together we want to fix the system so lets propose solutions that helps everyone in IV.

For a start, everyone mail those letters to the President.

neoklaus
02-13-2008, 04:05 PM
Are you suggesting that IV's efforts would increase the wait times for ROW?
What incentive does ROW have to work with IV then?

Generally speakin' we are all "Rest of the World".

Let's not just be theoretic. Our positive thinking and movement together will help resolve the issues.

Even that I'm here since 2000 & my husband 1999(H1B-ROW) we will wait and fight together with India, China...

Go, India! Go, China!

grupak
02-13-2008, 04:05 PM
Besides that, immigration is a privilege not a right, so if the US wants diversity and limit per country immigration, it is their right to do so. Before you start being shocked by this, I am NOT saying I do not understand your frustration and the feeling you discriminated against, but rights are rights and we knew that before we started the process. If we can improve it great, if we can't we will just have to deal with it realisticly.

take care

Everybody agrees that GC is a benefit that can come from employment, it is not an entitlement. However, we do not have to except the current situation as fate. Making the process better is what IV is about. And yes, there is no guarantee that things work out exactly as IV plans.

franklin
02-13-2008, 04:09 PM
I take up the challenge. I'm ROW, maybe this is the spur that will make me participate somewhat.

Yes, such a pity there was no one from the ROW group present in DC

alisa
02-13-2008, 09:07 PM
You may not be wrong! (Though you are stretching it a bit too far.)
We are not here to do justice. We are all here for our self-interests.

I am eating 3 times a day and looking for the fourth meal. Meanwhile there is a bunch hanging around the kitchen looking for atleast 1 meal a day. The food supply is limited. If i join with those , i might be in a situation of 2 meals a day. Even though justice is done with respect to whole lot, there was some injustice to me. What is then the incentive to work with IV ? Wasn't that the tone of question ?

alisa
02-13-2008, 09:28 PM
I don't think there is much I disagree with you. You are right about most things. Especiallly, that it is not an exact science. A lot depends upon how many applicants there are, and how many numbers are increased, and how much the country limits are increased by.

I also don't think that the country limits will go away totally. They will probably just increase them. But you never know. Espeically, because at some point, they will go to the point system, and then who knows whats going to happen to us.

Also, its not that I am concerned about what is GOOD JUST FOR ME. (BTW, its not just me, its about a third of IV) I am more worried about what is bad for me.


Again, there are no guarantees which of the 3 will get passed or accepted. 1 & 2 benefit you more than 3. Will be combined effect of those be more than enough to offset 3 (which I doubt will ever happen since that will require a change in law) is up to anyone's imagination.

Will you stop supporting IV which is trying to improve ALL legal immigrants prospects of getting a green card because one item on their agenda MAY DO more harm to you than good is your prerogative.

However, IMHO saying that 3 hurts you and hence you will not support IV is the same as those people who in July were crying because everyone was getting to file 485s and hence would lengthen the GC processing queue. I was in fact not benefiting too much from that but I supported it since having been in the queue for long enough I know how painful it is.

Like lot of other people on this forum said, try to rise above what is GOOD FOR ME and I will only support IV if it does ONLY that. Someday there might be a law that affects you more than the majority and you will need the all legal immigrants voice to help you out.

paskal
02-13-2008, 09:33 PM
I don't think there is much I disagree with you. You are right about most things. Especiallly, that it is not an exact science. A lot depends upon how many applicants there are, and how many numbers are increased, and how much the country limits are increased by.

I also don't think that the country limits will go away totally. They will probably just increase them. But you never know. Espeically, because at some point, they will go to the point system, and then who knows whats going to happen to us.

Also, its not that I am concerned about what is GOOD JUST FOR ME. (BTW, its not just me, its about a third of IV) I am more worried about what is bad for me.


i think it's pretty clear that increasing GC numbers is the first priority for iv. removing country limits would be a thin band aid of sorts if the GC numbers do not change. GC numbers have to increase, the rest comes after that.

hence in my view this argument is moot.
we need to come together and work on this, otherwise we all fail.

alisa
02-13-2008, 09:44 PM
Are you sure you understood it fully?

I wrote " if you think ", meaning a lot of harping on is happening based on the assumption that removal of country limits will impact ROW badly. It's not the fact. Though it has been explained a number of times that its not the case, some members obstinately stick to their guns and regurgitate it again!

Taking some sentence written by me out-of-context does not prove anything.


Easy now!!! Simmer down.....

Its just that every time the VB comes out, we get a lot of posts from folks from India/China who want to remove country limits. And they talk about only removing the country limits, as if removing country limits is going to solve the problem.
You scare away ROW when you do that.



Can I ask you a question? How much of IV goals you have supported till date? How many IV activities you have participated? How much you have contributed? I'm interested in knowing. If you haven't , whether you have incentive or not, it doesn't make even a teeny difference to the movement.

In December 2006, I started my state chapter, and went around and held meetings and told folks about IV. Then in the summer of 2007, I, along with other folks, some from India and some from Europe, went around and met with the staff of three congressmen/women, and two senators. And then we urged another person to go and meet his congresswoman. We covered half the state delegation in the House, and both senators.

grupak
02-13-2008, 09:51 PM
Easy now!!! Simmer down.....

Its just that every time the VB comes out, we get a lot of posts from folks from India/China who want to remove country limits. And they talk about only removing the country limits, as if removing country limits is going to solve the problem.
You scare away ROW when you do that.



Those who talk about only removing the country cap have not thought through the problem carefully. It will only slow everybody down. At the same time only increasing the visa number by say a factor of 2 will not solve the problem either since majority of EB GC are from a few countries.

As paskal, others and I have been saying IV is for all EB GC, and we should look at solutions that help everyone.

saiimmi
02-13-2008, 10:15 PM
Folks!

Sorry for the cliché "United we stand divided we fall". Let us be careful and have meaningful dialogue especially when we take up contentious issues that might pit one member against another. IV stands for improving EB based immigration for all irrespective of the country of birth. Please note that there are several outside folks vying to split the group and we do not need to do it internally. I feel that this discussion has come up at misopportune time. Just recall the same kind of discussion that came from folks that had missed the July fiasco last year.

Let us not forget our "primary" goals and harp on minor irritants.

Yet another EB3 India Guy !

Canuck
02-13-2008, 11:19 PM
Besides that, immigration is a privilege not a right, so if the US wants diversity and limit per country immigration, it is their right to do so.

What rights did the Natives have in the 18th and 19th centuries when Europeans invaded their lands, and massacred most of them? Did they respectfully ask the Natives if they could immigrate? No? They walked in as if they owned this land. As a Canadian, I'm ashamed to say that this happened in my country too.

Never think of immigration as a privilege - think of it as your birthright - this is your planet and you have the right to go wherever you want. Get into that mentality instead of the groveling "Please sir, I want some more" mentality.

CADude
02-13-2008, 11:51 PM
SIMPLE FACT: World is driven by self interest. General Attitude: Please let me get my GC first then I will be generous. I will agree do whatever you want and not object for anything but please give me GC first. People complain when they suffer otherwise who cares. Let them get hell with it. EB3 India is in same place from last 3 years but i didn't heard any buzz. Now all hope is dazed so hue and cry all over.

I am also suffering quite long (7+ year) in process and don't want any one go through same pain because i suffered.

Work for Goal and live a good life. It will not come back.

Take care..

alterego
02-13-2008, 11:56 PM
I doubt we can see a visa number increase until the CIR bus comes around again. It is anyones guess when that will be.

I think the only things that might stand a chance is visa recapture. If there are even 150-200K visas recaptured, this will tremendously improve retrogression for up to 2 years. Pressure is building on legislators from both employers and state gov't putting up arbitrary rules which are splitting communities. The enforcement approach taken by gov't is also giving pause for thought to some moderates on this issue. McCains ascension to republican nominee will serve to cool the temperature on this issue during the election season. Hopefully they can do something transitional in the interim which includes visa recapture.
After now 3 yrs of heavy retrogression, this is getting really bad.

bestia
02-14-2008, 12:44 AM
What rights did the Natives have in the 18th and 19th centuries when Europeans invaded their lands, and massacred most of them? Did they respectfully ask the Natives if they could immigrate? No? They walked in as if they owned this land. As a Canadian, I'm ashamed to say that this happened in my country too.
....

That's an old story. The answer is: "if someone commits a crime, it doesn't give you right to commit crime".

Why not go back and say "Well, Homo Sapiens themselves 150,000 years ago migrated to Europe from Africa and exterminated native Neanderthals. So why don't we just go and exterminate Europeans today and take Europe?"

If it wouldn't be Europeans, there wouldn't be technological advanced United States and we wouldn't want immigrate here. We are not migrating to Kongo or Sierra Leone, don't we?

lotsofspace
02-14-2008, 12:48 AM
How about facts? In 2006, Philippines received 23,733 EB visas, India - 17,169. No other country received more. China received 9,484.

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/yearbook/2006/table10d.xls

can you also please care to do the percentage with total applicants ?

mallu
02-14-2008, 12:53 AM
....... If it wouldn't be Europeans, there wouldn't be technological advanced United States and we wouldn't want immigrate here. We are not migrating to Kongo or Sierra Leone, don't we?

That is right. Those who came here before 200 - 300 years ago and their descendants have built a strong nation, to which every one wants to immigrate. Those who waiting in line ( and working here ) also doing the nation building and feel who got here earlier built laws/rules to weed the later batch of immigrants.

GKBest
02-14-2008, 02:07 AM
can you also please care to do the percentage with total applicants ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazycis View Post
How about facts? In 2006, Philippines received 23,733 EB visas, India - 17,169. No other country received more. China received 9,484.

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/s...6/table10d.xls


LAZYCIS......don't forget the fact that in 2006 there was still Schedule A...that's why Philippines and India was given more visa #s.

mariner5555
02-14-2008, 07:25 AM
What rights did the Natives have in the 18th and 19th centuries when Europeans invaded their lands, and massacred most of them? Did they respectfully ask the Natives if they could immigrate? No? They walked in as if they owned this land. As a Canadian, I'm ashamed to say that this happened in my country too.

Never think of immigration as a privilege - think of it as your birthright - this is your planet and you have the right to go wherever you want. Get into that mentality instead of the groveling "Please sir, I want some more" mentality.
well said. actually there should be corresponding supply of green cards to the demand. as long as jobs are there and people are needed - GC numbers should be increased. but life is never fair - my advice (to those who want) - live life well , try yr best with IV efforts and make as much money as you can(and be ready to move out with it). I think country limits was set in green cards to ensure that not many people come from one country (because they become powerful as their numbers increase and become a voting bloc) - however migration from south changed everything.

Mount Soche
02-14-2008, 09:30 AM
Bestia,

This is bigotry. Stop using other countries (Sierra Leone or Kongo (spelled Congo FYI) as scapegoats. Obviously, your country isn't so great or you wouldn't be on this forum trying to immigrate to the U.S. Plenty of people do immigrate to the Congo and Sierra Leone FYI...I am not attacking you but it is incredibly insensitive and ridiculous to point to other countries in that way - where are you from that's so perfect?

That's an old story. The answer is: "if someone commits a crime, it doesn't give you right to commit crime".

Why not go back and say "Well, Homo Sapiens themselves 150,000 years ago migrated to Europe from Africa and exterminated native Neanderthals. So why don't we just go and exterminate Europeans today and take Europe?"

If it wouldn't be Europeans, there wouldn't be technological advanced United States and we wouldn't want immigrate here. We are not migrating to Kongo or Sierra Leone, don't we?

NKR
02-14-2008, 09:49 AM
[[Bestia,

This is bigotry. Stop using other countries (Sierra Leone or Kongo (spelled Congo FYI) as scapegoats. Obviously, your country isn't so great or you wouldn't be on this forum trying to immigrate to the U.S. Plenty of people do immigrate to the Congo and Sierra Leone FYI...I am not attacking you but it is incredibly insensitive and ridiculous to point to other countries in that way - where are you from that's so perfect?
]]

First it was fighting between Indian/Chinese and ROW, now there is fighting within ROW. Come on Guys, today is valentine's day. Let there be Love and Peace. Let's unite...

StuckInTheMuck
02-14-2008, 10:10 AM
First it was fighting between Indian/Chinese and ROW, now there is fighting within ROW. Come on Guys, today is valentine's day. Let there be Love and Peace. Let's unite...

ahh, let us take this one step further, and start a "send candy hearts to USCIS" campaign :)

NKR
02-14-2008, 10:17 AM
Sorry for pasting the below post in the wrong thread, but I thought that people not residing in MI will have the tendency to by pass the thread that WD's post was in. I felt that we need to recognize and appreciate the efforts of people who worked towards this issue. If I remember right, Mark, WD and others took their time off to testify in state senate.

Immigration Voice in Detroit News

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...802140325/1008

"One member of Immigration Voice, a group of foreign-born professionals in the United States, describes how he came to America in 1999 as an international student and was later hired on an H-1B temporary visa. His green card application has been pending for years. He has not visited his home country for five years and recently moved to Michigan from Missouri for work reasons.

"My Missouri license will expire in days, and I can't get a Michigan driver's license. I can't walk 11 miles to work in this cold weather, since there is no bus service and I can't take time off to go to my home country" to attempt to obtain an "international" driver's license."
__________________
MI Chapter testimony in State Senate ( Driving License issue) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAcgeyjZ3qY

user1205
02-14-2008, 12:28 PM
I love that idea but too late now :)

ahh, let us take this one step further, and start a "send candy hearts to USCIS" campaign :)

bestia
02-14-2008, 12:36 PM
Bestia,

This is bigotry. Stop using other countries (Sierra Leone or Kongo (spelled Congo FYI) as scapegoats. Obviously, your country isn't so great or you wouldn't be on this forum trying to immigrate to the U.S. Plenty of people do immigrate to the Congo and Sierra Leone FYI...I am not attacking you but it is incredibly insensitive and ridiculous to point to other countries in that way - where are you from that's so perfect?

I brought African countries not as scapegoats, but as examples of countries not colonized by Europeans. I didn't mean to insult anybody from Sierra Leone or Congo ;) But my point was that if there wouldn't be Europeans - there wouldn't be United States.

Man... you can't bring some example, not to be accused of something... Come on guys.

Happy Valentine's Day.

sroyc
02-14-2008, 12:59 PM
I was watching an episode of the BBC series - Planet Earth where people involved in the conservation and protection of the tiger and other endangered animals were lamenting about how difficult it is for the intellectuals to convince those living close to these animal habitats to help in conservation when they are not able to feed their children and are affected by the tiger killing farm animals.

This is not exactly similar to the ROW Vs India/China debate. I'm definitely not implying that ROW applicants are not intellectuals. The gist of what I've learnt from that episode was that we cannot push for removal of per country quotas without significantly speeding the processing times for everyone. I have no doubt that the per country quota is unfair to people from countries with large populations simply because we are representing ourselves and not our countries here. (We have been bracketed according to the country of birth in order for USCIS to enforce the current immigration laws.) But at the same time, we'll lose the much required support of ROW members if our approach is to unload a few years of our misery on them.

With so many people stuck in the backlog, we definitely need a one-time fix to flush the queue before we can lobby for removal of per country quotas.

immigrationvoice1
02-14-2008, 01:22 PM
I brought African countries not as scapegoats, but as examples of countries not colonized by Europeans. I didn't mean to insult anybody from Sierra Leone or Congo ;) But my point was that if there wouldn't be Europeans - there wouldn't be United States.

Man... you can't bring some example, not to be accused of something... Come on guys.

Happy Valentine's Day.

....and without them, we won't have World Wars, Cold Wars, Star Wars, Nuclear Bombs, Present Day wars, Apartheid, Colonialism etc etc etc.... too! ....way to go Europeans and people who immigrated to USA from Europe....

Happy Valentine's Day!

mheggade
02-14-2008, 01:24 PM
I understand the mood among fellow Indians , due to substantial dates movement for ROW but it dint move enough for India. Lets take the high road and stop bickering among ourselves and lets get back to the Action Item which needs to be done.

Dyana
02-14-2008, 01:29 PM
Hi Bestia

I see your PD is Aug 2004 for EB3 ROW, and U already filed I 485.
I need some help: My PD is also Aug 2004, I'm in the EB3 ROW. When can I start filling I-485? The March VB says 01JAN2005. What is the last date I can file?
Thanks 4 help.

Circus123
02-14-2008, 02:03 PM
You are eligible to apply on the first business day of March 2008.( which is 1st ) until the last business day of March 2008 (Monday March 31st)I wouldn't wait for March end if I were you ...

bestia
02-14-2008, 02:03 PM
Hi Bestia

I see your PD is Aug 2004 for EB3 ROW, and U already filed I 485.
I need some help: My PD is also Aug 2004, I'm in the EB3 ROW. When can I start filling I-485? The March VB says 01JAN2005. What is the last date I can file?
Thanks 4 help.

You can mail your I-485 on Feb 29. USCIS must receive it in March. I would suggest you to file your app ASAP in March, because you never know - dates might retrogress again.

Mount Soche
02-14-2008, 02:09 PM
Bestia,

I am not fighting with you believe it or not - just that some things said on this forum are just downright nasty. FYI though.. the Congo WAS colonized and terrorized by the Europeans. Hear of the Belgian Congo?? I don't know about Sierra Leone though.

I brought African countries not as scapegoats, but as examples of countries not colonized by Europeans. I didn't mean to insult anybody from Sierra Leone or Congo ;) But my point was that if there wouldn't be Europeans - there wouldn't be United States.

Man... you can't bring some example, not to be accused of something... Come on guys.

Happy Valentine's Day.

Canuck
02-14-2008, 02:10 PM
I understand the mood among fellow Indians , due to substantial dates movement for ROW but it dint move enough for India. Lets take the high road and stop bickering among ourselves and lets get back to the Action Item which needs to be done.

You are assuming of course that all those who fall in the India category are Indians - I am not. I'm a Canadian who happened to be born in India and thus fall into that same bucket. My fellow Canadians who were born in Canada and are now in the US all support me in the removal of per country limits. Let us be more accurate and refer to this as the "mood amongst fellow Indian-born applicants", as opposed to "fellow Indians".

immigrationvoice1
02-14-2008, 02:18 PM
You are assuming of course that all those who fall in the India category are Indians - I am not. I'm a Canadian who happened to be born in India and thus fall into that same bucket. My fellow Canadians who were born in Canada and are now in the US all support me in the removal of per country limits. Let us be more accurate and refer to this as the "mood amongst fellow Indian-born applicants", as opposed to "fellow Indians".

With one fifth of the world population born in India, we probably consider everyone who has anything to do with India as "Indians" (as Russell Peters, another Indo-Canadian (Anglo Indian) said, "Indians - the ones from the Convenience stores and NOT from the Casinos!"), its the same thing...."Desis" would be a wider term I believe! We love all !

Welcome...

mbawa2574
02-14-2008, 02:34 PM
Let's stay united and focus on the orignal agenda. Removing country based caps from Employment Based Green cards is a valid agenda and is been there before this VB popped up. Skills don't need a cap.Business should be able to hire best and brightest here without any country limits.

Enforce country cap on Family based GC/DV lotterry for the diversity sake. FYI India and China don't have access to DV Lottery. This system is insane and let's not fight among ourselves to defend this crappy immigration system. . U may see ROW retrogress to 1998 in next VB and what will u say then ?. Bottom line is Fighting will not take us anywhere and changing this unpredictable system will be the only way to go.

bestia
02-14-2008, 02:43 PM
Bestia,

I am not fighting with you believe it or not - just that some things said on this forum are just downright nasty. FYI though.. the Congo WAS colonized and terrorized by the Europeans. Hear of the Belgian Congo?? I don't know about Sierra Leone though.

"Nasty" - might be just person's opinion. We don't have right to GC, but we have right to nasty opinions. I used to live in Maryland and was so tired of being careful when using words starting with "black*", "Afro*", "slave*", etc. Everything was always tended to be interpreted as implication, that someone is inferior to someone, etc. etc. The only solution was just to keep my mouth shut. And this is in country which is so proud of "free speech".

OK, I stand corrected, maybe not "colonized", but "settled" (still it's a wrong term - "immigrated"? Natives didn't have any immigration laws, though, so Europeans didn't brake any law). Europeans came here to build cities and live here. Congo was colonized for trading (robbing if you wish) purposes, slave trade, etc. That's the key difference.

But we are far from ROW/India+China debate :) I'm from ROW and it's my 8th year in the US, and all these years I'm "enjoying" not having any quota.

sammyb
02-14-2008, 02:53 PM
to close this thread and/or change settings so that no further new posts allowed... We have had enough on this ... it is now better to rest this topic in peace...

chintu25
02-14-2008, 03:08 PM
:mad:Guys do us all a favour Vote for or against the Lawsuit in the other thread

mallu
02-14-2008, 03:50 PM
Let USA take a statistics of the current population and then decide which category of countries need more or less immigration to balance true diversity.

Dyana
02-14-2008, 06:33 PM
Circus123 & Bestia thanks 4 the quik answers to my first post on this site; By now I just read & learned a lot from this site about GC process.Now it's time to take action because we have a PD current.
I just wanna be sure about the dates 'cause I cannot rely on my layer 100% because last year he insisted on completing our files 4 GC but he "forgot" 2 mention that our PD is nou current yet!!!
We'll send the cheques tomorrow!
I can hardly wait to get my EAD so I can apply 4 a decent job!!!!!!
Any idea if it takes longer than 90 days?
thanx all of U 4 your answers.

bestia
02-14-2008, 07:40 PM
Circus123 & Bestia thanks 4 the quik answers to my first post on this site; By now I just read & learned a lot from this site about GC process.Now it's time to take action because we have a PD current.
I just wanna be sure about the dates 'cause I cannot rely on my layer 100% because last year he insisted on completing our files 4 GC but he "forgot" 2 mention that our PD is nou current yet!!!
We'll send the cheques tomorrow!
I can hardly wait to get my EAD so I can apply 4 a decent job!!!!!!
Any idea if it takes longer than 90 days?
thanx all of U 4 your answers.

Dyana,

I would suggest using your own checks for I-485. This way, once USCIS will cash your checks, and if you have online banking - you will see the receipt numbers on the back of the checks. This way you will be able to see your application status right away. It was very critical (at least for me) during June/July tsunami of applications, as I received the actual receipt pretty late.

Also, don't count on that EAD, it will be safe to invoke AC21 only after 180 days and having approved I-140. You have good chance to have your AOS adjudicated. In this case you will have to stay with your current employer for at least another 6 months. If you will leave before 180 days and your GC will be approved, then AC21 will not apply and your GC will be revoked.

I also learned a lot on IV :)

Pegasus503
02-14-2008, 09:05 PM
..............
Enforce country cap on Family based GC/DV lotterry for the diversity sake. FYI India and China don't have access to DV Lottery. This system is insane and let's not fight among ourselves to defend this crappy immigration system. . U may see ROW retrogress to 1998 in next VB and what will u say then ?. Bottom line is Fighting will not take us anywhere and changing this unpredictable system will be the only way to go.



http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2006/72835.htm

the Divertsity Visa Lottery progam,

following countries[1] are not eligible to apply because they sent a total of more than 50,000 immigrants to the United States over the period of the previous five years:


BRAZIL, CANADA, CHINA (mainland-born), COLOMBIA, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, EL SALVADOR, HAITI, INDIA, JAMAICA, MEXICO, PAKISTAN, PHILIPPINES, PERU, POLAND, RUSSIA, SOUTH KOREA, UNITED KINGDOM (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and VIETNAM. Persons born in Hong Kong SAR, Macau SAR and Taiwan are eligible.

The point being that until the law changes, USCIS deals with individuals from different countries differently.


Concerning ROW retrogression, my H1b is an October expiry (I've been here since 1999) so I file my renewal in April (6 months in advance) with my i-140 approved I qualified for 3 years additional H1b. But with the fiasco quotas last May, June and July I was able i-485, however because USCIS issued a receipt for the i-485 they only gave me 12 months H1b renewal. then to add insult to the injury ROW retrogressed meaning another H1b renewal is likely.

At some point I will have to decide whether to begin the H1b renewal process again.

Dyana
02-15-2008, 12:25 PM
Dyana,

I would suggest using your own checks for I-485. This way, once USCIS will cash your checks, and if you have online banking - you will see the receipt numbers on the back of the checks. This way you will be able to see your application status right away. It was very critical (at least for me) during June/July tsunami of applications, as I received the actual receipt pretty late.

Also, don't count on that EAD, it will be safe to invoke AC21 only after 180 days and having approved I-140. You have good chance to have your AOS adjudicated. In this case you will have to stay with your current employer for at least another 6 months. If you will leave before 180 days and your GC will be approved, then AC21 will not apply and your GC will be revoked.

I also learned a lot on IV :)
Bestia,

First thanks 4 your advice. We'll send 2 separate cheques, one 4 me and one 4 my husband.Is this what U meant when suggesting 2 send "my own cheque"?

Why do U say I have good chance to have my AOS adjudecated? I really needed to hear that. Can U be more specific? Any idea/guess how long could it take to get GC?

About EAD. I 'm on H4, not working yet, that's why I am eager to get EAD. Do U think that there is no chance to get it within the 90 days? My husband is on H1B an he has I40 already approved. He won't leave his job that's for sure.

What "IV" stands for? Where can I found more about it?

hpandey
02-15-2008, 12:30 PM
Bestia,

First thanks 4 your advice. We'll send 2 separate cheques, one 4 me and one 4 my husband.Is this what U meant when suggesting 2 send "my own cheque"?

Why do U say I have good chance to have my AOS adjudecated? I really needed to hear that. Can U be more specific? Any idea/guess how long could it take to get GC?

About EAD. I 'm on H4, not working yet, that's why I am eager to get EAD. Do U think that there is no chance to get it within the 90 days? My husband is on H1B an he has I40 already approved. He won't leave his job that's for sure.

What "IV" stands for? Where can I found more about it?


Hi

IV stands for Immigration Voice and you are writing these posts on the forums on its website.

Go to Immigrationvoice.org Home Page to know more

Lasantha
02-15-2008, 12:48 PM
What Beastia meant was, send your own personal cheques as opposed to getting your employer to send theirs or pay with bank drafts etc. That way like he explained, you will know when USCIS cashed your cheques, and if you have online access to your account you will get to find out your file number way before USCIS sends the receipt notice.

Aslo I belive you have to send seperate cheques for each application. One for 485, seperate one for EAD and another for AP. I don't know if that's a rule but that's how my attorney asked me to send the cheques.



Bestia,

First thanks 4 your advice. We'll send 2 separate cheques, one 4 me and one 4 my husband.Is this what U meant when suggesting 2 send "my own cheque"?

Why do U say I have good chance to have my AOS adjudecated? I really needed to hear that. Can U be more specific? Any idea/guess how long could it take to get GC?

About EAD. I 'm on H4, not working yet, that's why I am eager to get EAD. Do U think that there is no chance to get it within the 90 days? My husband is on H1B an he has I40 already approved. He won't leave his job that's for sure.

What "IV" stands for? Where can I found more about it?

Munna Bhai
02-15-2008, 12:49 PM
Bestia,

First thanks 4 your advice. We'll send 2 separate cheques, one 4 me and one 4 my husband.Is this what U meant when suggesting 2 send "my own cheque"?

Why do U say I have good chance to have my AOS adjudecated? I really needed to hear that. Can U be more specific? Any idea/guess how long could it take to get GC?

About EAD. I 'm on H4, not working yet, that's why I am eager to get EAD. Do U think that there is no chance to get it within the 90 days? My husband is on H1B an he has I40 already approved. He won't leave his job that's for sure.

What "IV" stands for? Where can I found more about it?

Follow what Bestia says. What Bestia meant is that, you should send your personnal cheques so that you can track it. Yes, there are good chances of AOS approval because that is normal thing, unless you are out-of-status or if your employer is in black list. No one knows how long it will take to get a GC but do look for other options like EAD etc.

Hope this helps. Ask as many questions as you have, we will do our best to answer.

Dyana
02-15-2008, 01:27 PM
Thank U all for your quick answers&good advice.It feels good to know I have new friends who can help me with my questions.
About the cheques u're right, that's how we have done it. Separate personnal cheques for each of us, easy to track online.
Hopefully we are not out-of-status and my husband's employer is not on th black list.
How couldn't I figure it out by myself what IV means????Shame,shame...

bfadlia
02-15-2008, 01:57 PM
You guys keep saying diversity is a FB immigration problem only not EB, hence no cap needed in EB.
REALLY? Is it a coincidence that a desi company owner will usually have 99% of his emploees Indian? Thinking that employment depends only on skills is not realistic. A lot of the networking based on national origin interferes with how at least H1 jobs are landed here. So there is a reason to have rules preventing a monopoly.

Cheers.




Let's stay united and focus on the orignal agenda. Removing country based caps from Employment Based Green cards is a valid agenda and is been there before this VB popped up. Skills don't need a cap.Business should be able to hire best and brightest here without any country limits.

Enforce country cap on Family based GC/DV lotterry for the diversity sake. FYI India and China don't have access to DV Lottery. This system is insane and let's not fight among ourselves to defend this crappy immigration system. . U may see ROW retrogress to 1998 in next VB and what will u say then ?. Bottom line is Fighting will not take us anywhere and changing this unpredictable system will be the only way to go.

grupak
02-15-2008, 02:07 PM
You guys keep saying diversity is a FB immigration problem only not EB, hence no cap needed in EB.
REALLY? Is it a coincidence that a desi company owner will usually have 99% of his emploees Indian? Thinking that employment depends only on skills is not realistic. A lot of the networking based on national origin interferes with how at least H1 jobs are landed here. So there is a reason to have rules preventing a monopoly.

Cheers.

Guys give it a rest. We are here to solve the backlog for all EB, and most effected are from a few countries. So unless the total number is increased by orders of magnitude, the pragmatic solution is what IV advocates. And IV is working to help everyone.

If there is fraud or some other problem in the H1B program, let the USCIS do the policing.

bestia
02-15-2008, 02:10 PM
Thank U all for your quick answers&good advice.It feels good to know I have new friends who can help me with my questions.
About the cheques u're right, that's how we have done it. Separate personnal cheques for each of us, easy to track online.
Hopefully we are not out-of-status and my husband's employer is not on th black list.
How couldn't I figure it out by myself what IV means????Shame,shame...

Dyana, I thought you are the primary applicant. In your case - yeah, you are free to use EAD once you get it. It's your husband who should be maintaining 180 days, "same or similar", etc. I got my EAD on 11th week (I am primary applicant). Some people get earlier, some later.

You have good chance of approval, because we are current and I suspect we will be current several months from now. I-485 approval is like a lottery. It can be approved in 1 month or your application can rot for years. Lottery :)

Lasantha
02-15-2008, 02:35 PM
Hey Bestia,
Any wild guesses how far the dates could move for April (if at all)? I have March 05 and pretty excited.


Dyana, I thought you are the primary applicant. In your case - yeah, you are free to use EAD once you get it. It's your husband who should be maintaining 180 days, "same or similar", etc. I got my EAD on 11th week (I am primary applicant). Some people get earlier, some later.

You have good chance of approval, because we are current and I suspect we will be current several months from now. I-485 approval is like a lottery. It can be approved in 1 month or your application can rot for years. Lottery :)

Lasantha
02-15-2008, 02:41 PM
You are welcome Dyana. Also if you search this forum, you might be able to find lots of threads on filing 485, doing medicals etc from last June/July/August. These topics were beaten to death on this forum last year when a whole bunch of us filed 485. Good luck!

Thank U all for your quick answers&good advice.It feels good to know I have new friends who can help me with my questions.
About the cheques u're right, that's how we have done it. Separate personnal cheques for each of us, easy to track online.
Hopefully we are not out-of-status and my husband's employer is not on th black list.
How couldn't I figure it out by myself what IV means????Shame,shame...

mbawa2574
02-15-2008, 02:43 PM
You guys keep saying diversity is a FB immigration problem only not EB, hence no cap needed in EB.
REALLY? Is it a coincidence that a desi company owner will usually have 99% of his emploees Indian? Thinking that employment depends only on skills is not realistic. A lot of the networking based on national origin interferes with how at least H1 jobs are landed here. So there is a reason to have rules preventing a monopoly.

Cheers.

Yes skills don't need a cap. If I am a business owner, I have all rights to hire best and brightest in the world. It is my choice whom I hire not Government tells me where to go for hiring. Business may hire from India or Antartica, it should not be anyone's damn concern. Let the free markets work !!! This is insane

bfadlia
02-15-2008, 03:22 PM
u r missing my point..
Again you are saying it's a SKILL cap. We can agree business may hire whoever they please but don't pretend that they only hire based on SKILL..
when someone says let business hire the "best and brightest", that's my problem, he implies the best and brightest are concentrated in only two countries so that's what's insane, that's why he won't be taken seriously.
cheers.



Yes skills don't need a cap. If I am a business owner, I have all rights to hire best and brightest in the world. It is my choice whom I hire not Government tells me where to go for hiring. Business may hire from India or Antartica, it should not be anyone's damn concern. Let the free markets work !!! This is insane

Dyana
02-15-2008, 03:33 PM
Lasantha,
We were ready to file last year in oct but our PD was not current yet. So we've been through medical exams already; We just waited and prayed for a current PD to file I 485.Thanks.

Bestia,
Hope U're right and our PD will stay current for months.Thanks for encouragement.
Yes, I'm not the primarily applicant and I badly need my EAD.

NKR
02-15-2008, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by
You guys keep saying diversity is a FB immigration problem only not EB, hence no cap needed in EB.
REALLY? Is it a coincidence that a desi company owner will usually have 99% of his emploees Indian? Thinking that employment depends only on skills is not realistic. A lot of the networking based on national origin interferes with how at least H1 jobs are landed here. So there is a reason to have rules preventing a monopoly.
Cheers.

Who created the monopoly?. Why are there less employers from other countries?. Who is preventing other employers from not hiring people from their own country?. It is a level playing field for all entreprenuers, right?...

anyways, why don't we just patch up and move on... I am getting tired of this already and there are thousands of other people who are feeling the same.

bfadlia
02-15-2008, 03:52 PM
Who created the monopoly?. Why are there less employers from other countries?. Who is preventing other employers from not hiring people from their own country?. It is a level playing field for all entreprenuers, right?...

anyways, why don't we just patch up and move on... I am getting tired of this already and there are thousands of other people who are feeling the same.

Human nature is what tends to create the monopoly. That's the reason for having laws, we know favorism will always exist but a law would prevent it from going over the limit. The way you want it we'll have whites-only-business, asians-only-business and so on..
When you are tired of this discussion you should ask to stop the ones who started it saying their people are better and brighter than others and hence deserve larger immigration volume, before you ask to stop the people who answer them.

Lasantha
02-15-2008, 04:08 PM
Excellent point brother!

Human nature is what tends to create the monopoly. That's the reason for having laws, we know favorism will always exist but a law would prevent it from going over the limit. The way you want it we'll have whites-only-business, asians-only-business and so on..
When you are tired of this discussion you should ask to stop the ones who started it saying their people are better and brighter than others and hence deserve larger immigration volume, before you ask to stop the people who answer them.

grupak
02-15-2008, 04:41 PM
Excellent point brother!

Talking about diversity, those not familiar should take a look at an Indian currency note.

Maybe someone can scan and post one, I don't have any Indian note with me. You will see around 20+ languages on it. You can tell its different languages because they use different script unlike say German and French (except for the accents/umlaut). Actually the number of languages are much more than shown on the notes. For whatever reason AFAIK only languages with distinct script are classified as languages in India, others are called dialects. These dialects are actually languages because they are not dialects of anything (For example in this definition, lot of European languages will be classified as a single language because they use Latin script).

The point is unlike what outsider might think there is as much if not more cultural, ethnic, linguistic differences between a Gujarati and a Tamil Indian as between a German and a Portuguese European.

So how much favor I will carry with a Malayali (no disrespect to anyone from Kerala) is debatable.

mbawa2574
02-15-2008, 05:03 PM
u r missing my point..
Again you are saying it's a SKILL cap. We can agree business may hire whoever they please but don't pretend that they only hire based on SKILL..
when someone says let business hire the "best and brightest", that's my problem, he implies the best and brightest are concentrated in only two countries so that's what's insane, that's why he won't be taken seriously.
cheers.

Who is preventing people of ROW for applying H1b or Green card EB ? Employers look for availability of talent not for country of origin and anyone who competes in the global market wins. If ROW countries have less people with marketable skills or less people who want to work outside their countries,it is not the problem of Chinese or Indians. There is no logic with Employers being forced to wait for visa numbers to comply with diversity. There should be a FIFO system without any country of birth barriers. USCIS wastes more annual visa numbers due to these country caps. Lets make these guys fine tune this immigration system which is actually against the free market capitalist principles of this country.

jonty_11
02-15-2008, 05:06 PM
Guys, we have other important things at hand. Lets work on letter campaign and making ppl aware of it. There is no point in these discussions, we need to attack the problem at its core.!!!!!

NKR
02-15-2008, 05:15 PM
Human nature is what tends to create the monopoly. That's the reason for having laws, we know favorism will always exist but a law would prevent it from going over the limit. The way you want it we'll have whites-only-business, asians-only-business and so on..
When you are tired of this discussion you should ask to stop the ones who started it saying their people are better and brighter than others and hence deserve larger immigration volume, before you ask to stop the people who answer them.

I beleive that there should be more representation of people from other countries in desi companies, but when more number of desis apply for jobs. Is it any fault of the company is they are hiring only them?.

mbawa2574
02-15-2008, 05:25 PM
Human nature is what tends to create the monopoly. That's the reason for having laws, we know favorism will always exist but a law would prevent it from going over the limit. The way you want it we'll have whites-only-business, asians-only-business and so on..
When you are tired of this discussion you should ask to stop the ones who started it saying their people are better and brighter than others and hence deserve larger immigration volume, before you ask to stop the people who answer them.
America is about freedom and liberty and is a law abiding country. Country caps is discrimination with people of two countries which have almost half of the population in the world. I am not saying increase visas for India or China. I am only saying increase the total number of visas and then make the system FIFO so that every skilled person in this world have same access to immigration.

bfadlia
02-15-2008, 05:31 PM
Who is preventing people of ROW for applying H1b or Green card EB ? Employers look for availability of talent not for country of origin and anyone who competes in the global market wins. If ROW countries have less people with marketable skills or less people who want to work outside their countries,it is not the problem of Chinese or Indians. There is no logic with Employers being forced to wait for visa numbers to comply with diversity. There should be a FIFO system without any country of birth barriers. USCIS wastes more annual visa numbers due to these country caps. Lets make these guys fine tune this immigration system which is actually against the free market capitalist principles of this country.

Employers hire only based on talent, ROW people must have less marketable skills or not want to leave their countries and we need to teach the US on capitalist principles.
You are absolutely right, you didn't miss my point, you completely lost touch with reality.
People who keep asking that we just stop the discussion, tell me how we can focus on the issues with people telling us there r more of them here because they are smarter and more marketable. Is this their idea of how to bring us together?

kuhelica2000
02-15-2008, 05:33 PM
The reason we have greater supply of workforce in IT from one specific country is not because of skills or talents. Almost every IT workers from ROW and China came to the US as a foreign student after TOEFL, GMAT, GRE, internship and only then landed a job in IT. Whereas the preponderence of IT workers from India came here through L1/B1/H1 sponsorship through bodyshops. Attending school, preparing for generalized tests requires time, money and patience. This is one big factor why the supply curve is skewed.

Who is preventing people of ROW for applying H1b or Green card EB ? Employers look for availability of talent not for country of origin and anyone who competes in the global market wins. If ROW countries have less people with marketable skills or less people who want to work outside their countries,it is not the problem of Chinese or Indians. There is no logic with Employers being forced to wait for visa numbers to comply with diversity. There should be a FIFO system without any country of birth barriers. USCIS wastes more annual visa numbers due to these country caps. Lets make these guys fine tune this immigration system which is actually against the free market capitalist principles of this country.

luncheSpecials
02-15-2008, 05:38 PM
I totally blame bodyshoppers for the mess

dingudi
02-15-2008, 05:38 PM
The reason we have greater supply of workforce in IT from one specific country is not because of skills or talents. Almost every IT workers from ROW and China came to the US as a foreign student after TOEFL, GMAT, GRE, internship and only then landed a job in IT. Whereas the preponderence of IT workers from India came here through L1/B1/H1 sponsorship through bodyshops. Attending school, preparing for generalized tests requires time, money and patience. This is one big factor why the supply curve is skewed.


I am an Indian and also came as a student giving GRE/TOEFL. So do not generalize that IT workers from India came here via L1/B1 route. Some of them did but some did not. I know lot of Indian who came here to study.

If India is producing more people qualified in these skills then its not their fault.

mbawa2574
02-15-2008, 05:38 PM
Employers hire only based on talent, ROW people must have less marketable skills or not want to leave their countries and we need to teach the US on capitalist principles.
You are absolutely right, you didn't miss my point, you completely lost touch with reality.
People who keep asking that we just stop the discussion, tell me how we can focus on the issues with people telling us there r more of them here because they are smarter and more marketable. Is this their idea of how to bring us together?

I will say we are one. We can a fair system which allows skills to be a deciding cretaria for EB immigration not the country of origin. If you ask me I will say there should be no cap on total number of EB Immg. visas and no country of birth cap. You want equality so stop supporting discrimination first.

bfadlia
02-15-2008, 05:38 PM
America is about freedom and liberty and is a law abiding country. Country caps is discrimination with people of two countries which have almost half of the population in the world. I am not saying increase visas for India or China. I am only saying increase the total number of visas and then make the system FIFO so that every skilled person in this world have same access to immigration.

Finally an honest admission. You finally say there are more Indian and Chinese here because they have huge population.
If you can't see the insult in keeping to say "best and brightest" then I would have wasted my time.

mbawa2574
02-15-2008, 05:44 PM
Finally an honest admission. You finally say there are more Indian and Chinese here because they have huge population.
If you can't see the insult in keeping to say "best and brightest" then I would have wasted my time.

I am not saying that there are more Chinese and Indians here. I am saying that application process is not fair since it does not give everyone a fair shot.

I am saying if more highly skilled Chinese and Indians apply for the same job,no cap should prevent them from immigration. If there FIFO ( First In and First Out), how will ROW suffer ? Can you explain ?

immigrationvoice1
02-15-2008, 05:45 PM
Talking about diversity, those not familiar should take a look at an Indian currency note.

Maybe someone can scan and post one, I don't have any Indian note with me. You will see around 20+ languages on it. You can tell its different languages because they use different script unlike say German and French (except for the accents/umlaut). Actually the number of languages are much more than shown on the notes. For whatever reason AFAIK only languages with distinct script are classified as languages in India, others are called dialects. These dialects are actually languages because they are not dialects of anything (For example in this definition, lot of European languages will be classified as a single language because they use Latin script).

The point is unlike what outsider might think there is as much if not more cultural, ethnic, linguistic differences between a Gujarati and a Tamil Indian as between a German and a Portuguese European.

So how much favor I will carry with a Malayali (no disrespect to anyone from Kerala) is debatable.

....completely!

user1205
02-15-2008, 05:46 PM
For the most part I think you're right. When I did my master's we were less than 10 white people in 200 in that major. Most of the indian people in there (about half of the 190) were H4s studying while the spouse came on H1 directly from India. And while I had to pay international tuition they got the in state resident tuition.
When I finished my degree might I add in the top 5 of those 200 I had a hard time finding a job while my colleagues each knew someone who helped them land a job a lot easier. I did ok for myself in the end and I have many Indian friends so don't take this as an anti-indian post. But there are definitely advantages to be part of a big group that is concentrated in an industry.

That being said, I don't think that we would be having this discussion in a normal world in which the GC numbers are enough. So stop the bickering and work towards increasing those numbers. That will make life easier for everybody.



The reason we have greater supply of workforce in IT from one specific country is not because of skills or talents. Almost every IT workers from ROW and China came to the US as a foreign student after TOEFL, GMAT, GRE, internship and only then landed a job in IT. Whereas the preponderence of IT workers from India came here through L1/B1/H1 sponsorship through bodyshops. Attending school, preparing for generalized tests requires time, money and patience. This is one big factor why the supply curve is skewed.

kuhelica2000
02-15-2008, 05:47 PM
Dingudi,
I didn't generalize. I said preponderence meaning "a lot of" cases with L1/B1/H1 and I am also not denying the fact the India is doing a great job in producing IT skills in great numbers. I am saying how they end up in America in greater numbers than any other country. China, Pakistan, Israel also produces lots of IT gradutes but they don't have the bodyshop connection to land here with an NIIT certificate.

I am an Indian and also came as a student giving GRE/TOEFL. So do not generalize that IT workers from India came here via L1/B1 route. Some of them did but some did not. I know lot of Indian who came here to study.

If India is producing more people qualified in these skills then its not their fault.

Ramba
02-15-2008, 05:51 PM
INA has lot of flaws with regard to ethics or fairness. It is countless. The ROW vs India/China fight is st..d. The bottom line is US has its own rights/rule to what kind of people they want to bring in.

If you fight for fairness in INA, then it is joke. For example, if you are a spouse of us citizen you will be given GC immediatly, (no numarical limit). However, if you a researcher from India, develops medicine for AIDS and applied NIW EB2 petition, there is no visa availble for forseeable future. You can say it is unfair. But government dont care. One cannot argue why they have E2 visa for specialy for Australians? Why not for Newzlanders? Why they have special quota in H1B for singaporans and Chilians?. If any one asks fairness question it is end less. For example in guest worker program in last year, they eliminated country quota (to legalise mexican unskilled-undocumented workers).

Fair Bussiness that needs skilled foreign workes dont care about country of birth of workers. But it is sad that INA, prevent that fairness. But government has its own agenda. The better way to eliminate this problem is by constuctive lobbying to eliminate country quota or atleast increse from 7% to reasonable number.

mbawa2574
02-15-2008, 05:54 PM
Dingudi,
I didn't generalize. I said preponderence meaning "a lot of" cases with L1/B1/H1 and I am also not denying the fact the India is doing a great job in producing IT skills in great numbers. I am saying how they end up in America in greater numbers than any other country. China, Pakistan, Israel also produces lots of IT gradutes but they don't have the bodyshop connection to land here with an NIIT certificate.

You are accusing people from India for using wrong credentials for picking up H1b/L1 jobs. This is ridiculous and pretty racist.

mbawa2574
02-15-2008, 05:55 PM
Dingudi,
I didn't generalize. I said preponderence meaning "a lot of" cases with L1/B1/H1 and I am also not denying the fact the India is doing a great job in producing IT skills in great numbers. I am saying how they end up in America in greater numbers than any other country. China, Pakistan, Israel also produces lots of IT gradutes but they don't have the bodyshop connection to land here with an NIIT certificate.

You just sound idiotic

bfadlia
02-15-2008, 06:07 PM
I am not saying that there are more Chinese and Indians here. I am saying that application process is not fair since it does not give everyone a fair shot.

I am saying if more highly skilled Chinese and Indians apply for the same job,no cap should prevent them from immigration. If there FIFO ( First In and First Out), how will ROW suffer ? Can you explain ?

You are not saying there are more chinese and indians here, so that means what? that there are not more chinese and indians here?
As you said half the world population is indian or chinese and I'm saying this, rather than pure skill, is why there are more of them here. This is why I repeatedly protest your reference to only skills and brightness as the factor for the non balanced EB population.
If the world population is the reference, the US would have to take half of its immigrants from 2 countries, they clearly don't want that so they conciously set that rule.. u need them to change the rule u need to give them a reason that's useful for them not for you.

mbawa2574
02-15-2008, 06:20 PM
You are not saying there are more chinese and indians here, so that means what? that there are not more chinese and indians here?
As you said half the world population is indian or chinese and I'm saying this, rather than pure skill, is why there are more of them here. This is why I repeatedly protest your reference to only skills and brightness as the factor for the non balanced EB population.
If the world population is the reference, the US would have to take half of its immigrants from 2 countries, they clearly don't want that so they conciously set that rule.. u need them to change the rule u need to give them a reason that's useful for them not for you.

Can't you understand the meaning of fair shot and equality ? Let people apply in FIFO . Don't tell me what US wants ? No one has a clear idea of it.and suddenly people like you for your personal interests have started opposing IV's skill based initiative because your dates moved a little ahead and supporting existing discriminatory laws. What will happen when they retrogress again to 1999 next month ? What will be your stand then? Did you come to IV rally ? Probably not because you think of your personal interest and have nothing to do with the big picture.

bfadlia
02-15-2008, 06:58 PM
Can't you understand the meaning of fair shot and equality ? Let people apply in FIFO . Don't tell me what US wants ? No one has a clear idea of it.and suddenly people like you for your personal interests have started opposing IV's skill based initiative because your dates moved a little ahead and supporting existing discriminatory laws. What will happen when they retrogress again to 1999 next month ? What will be your stand then? Did you come to IV rally ? Probably not because you think of your personal interest and have nothing to do with the big picture.

No. I can't understand fairshot and equality when major bodyshops from a certain nationality flood the market here with people from that certain nationality, u keep ignoring that and coming back to the stupid suggestion that it's only because u have more talent
suit urself, anyone who argues with you reasonably, tell them they are wrong and make assumptions about their motives and insult and alienate more members of your organization
good luck

NKR
02-15-2008, 07:24 PM
Dingudi,
I didn't generalize. I said preponderence meaning "a lot of" cases with L1/B1/H1 and I am also not denying the fact the India is doing a great job in producing IT skills in great numbers. I am saying how they end up in America in greater numbers than any other country. China, Pakistan, Israel also produces lots of IT gradutes but they don't have the bodyshop connection to land here with an NIIT certificate.

Then pray why people from other countries are not landing IT jobs?. Can I say that NIIT teaching is better than the teachings in the universities of the countries you have mentioned?.

mallu
02-15-2008, 07:26 PM
The reason we have greater supply of workforce in IT from one specific country is not because of skills or talents. Almost every IT workers from ROW and China came to the US as a foreign student after TOEFL, GMAT, GRE, internship and only then landed a job in IT. Whereas the preponderence of IT workers from India came here through L1/B1/H1 sponsorship through bodyshops. Attending school, preparing for generalized tests requires time, money and patience. This is one big factor why the supply curve is skewed.

I think it was reported that students from India is the largest % of students in US universities.

user1205
02-15-2008, 07:31 PM
probably true but because most of them are on H4 which means someone else in their family is H1.

I think it was reported that students from India is the largest % of students in US universities.

NKR
02-15-2008, 07:32 PM
You are not saying there are more chinese and indians here, so that means what? that there are not more chinese and indians here?
As you said half the world population is indian or chinese and I'm saying this, rather than pure skill, is why there are more of them here. This is why I repeatedly protest your reference to only skills and brightness as the factor for the non balanced EB population.
If the world population is the reference, the US would have to take half of its immigrants from 2 countries, they clearly don't want that so they conciously set that rule.. u need them to change the rule u need to give them a reason that's useful for them not for you.

I understand your anxiety as much as you feel our pain, if there is a system that can make things faster for all of us in any way then be it.

Oh btw, I was shopping for life insurance. I was told that since I am not a permanent resident and if i do not want to pay higher premium then i need to go for a 10 term insurance and get a new one for 30 years after I get my GC. if i become old waiting for GC then I will end
up paying higher premium anyway. that is just one of the many hardships we have to endure, by then, why should you care anyway?, what is in it for you?.

Please note that i am not in favor of removing country cap, but i just want things to move faster without affecting people from ROW

NKR
02-15-2008, 07:34 PM
probably true but because most of them are on H4 which means someone else in their family is H1.

what will they do at home anyway?. wouldn't it be better if they be allowed to work than force them to go and study?

mallu
02-15-2008, 07:38 PM
probably true but because most of them are on H4 which means someone else in their family is H1.

I don't know what % of that group consists of H4 spouse of H1 folks. But i believe a good percentage of those applied through the TOEFL,GRE route.

grupak
02-15-2008, 07:42 PM
I don't know what % of that group consists of H4 spouse of H1 folks. But i believe a good percentage of those applied through the TOEFL,GRE route.

Anyone knows of statistics for F1 visas per country? This might fill in some gaps here. My impression was some countries send more F1s than others.

mbawa2574
02-15-2008, 07:49 PM
No. I can't understand fairshot and equality when major bodyshops from a certain nationality flood the market here with people from that certain nationality, u keep ignoring that and coming back to the stupid suggestion that it's only because u have more talent
suit urself, anyone who argues with you reasonably, tell them they are wrong and make assumptions about their motives and insult and alienate more members of your organization
good luck

Reality is that you don't want to see Indians and Chinese around you. I am sure IV does not need people like you. IV does not promote nationality and we are against all the bad pracitices of the body shoppers but we don't want someone to label Indians and Chinese in this country product of bodyshopping immigration.
Most of the population are well educated , skilled professionals and labelling them that they are flooding the market is insulting. If you think that you don't have marketable skills and is difficult for you to play due to Indians and Chinese, please feel free not to come back to this website. There are many Anti-Chinese and Anti-India blogs for your agenda. I am not sure whose side you are on and who has planted you here.

mallu
02-15-2008, 07:49 PM
I don't know what % of that group consists of H4 spouse of H1 folks. But i believe a good percentage of those applied through the TOEFL,GRE route.

And usually that happens to be 'low tier' universities in USA.
No offense to San Jose State University in silicon valley, where you can see H4 ladies flock to classes.

NKR
02-15-2008, 07:52 PM
For the most part I think you're right. When I did my master's we were less than 10 white people in 200 in that major. Most of the indian people in there (about half of the 190) were H4s studying while the spouse came on H1 directly from India. And while I had to pay international tuition they got the in state resident tuition.
When I finished my degree might I add in the top 5 of those 200 I had a hard time finding a job while my colleagues each knew someone who helped them land a job a lot easier. I did ok for myself in the end and I have many Indian friends so don't take this as an anti-indian post. But there are definitely advantages to be part of a big group that is concentrated in an industry.

That being said, I don't think that we would be having this discussion in a normal world in which the GC numbers are enough. So stop the bickering and work towards increasing those numbers. That will make life easier for everybody.


If the spouses are allowed to work, then their one or two years salary is more than the international fee that you paid. Who is the biggest loser.

H4 people going to college is just a miniscule compared to the number of desi students who come here with a good GRE and GMAT scores.

mallu
02-15-2008, 08:00 PM
....
H4 people going to college is just a miniscule compared to the number of desi students who come here with a good GRE and GMAT scores.
People would like to see India as land of snake charmers, cows blocking roads etc.
They can't digest IITians coming to MIT, Stanford etc. :-)

NKR
02-15-2008, 08:06 PM
People would like to see India as land of snake charmers, cows blocking roads etc.
They can't digest IITians coming to MIT, Stanford etc. :-)

That's taking it a bit too far, I might disagree on most of the things ROW people say but I am not here to make enemies. I have waited and I do not want others also to wait, I just want everybody (including ROW people) to get out of this mess as fast as possible.

mbawa2574
02-15-2008, 08:12 PM
People would like to see India as land of snake charmers, cows blocking roads etc.
They can't digest IITians coming to MIT, Stanford etc. :-)

I agree man. There is shortage of skills but none of ignorance.:)

mbawa2574
02-15-2008, 08:18 PM
That's taking it a bit too far, I might disagree on most of the things ROW people say but I am not here to make enemies. I have waited and I do not want others also to wait, I just want everybody (including ROW people) to get out of this mess as fast as possible.

IV stands for unity . Discriminatory laws that make ROW vs MICP should be teared down. IV represents all nationalities. That's what makes America "Melting Pot". I am happy for people whose dates moved. Let's play together and make this system work for every skilled immigrant who goes through this GC process.

sathweb
02-15-2008, 08:18 PM
Please stick to subject of this thread.
or
Please some one close this thread. Its already old news.
(Its going out of control)

lfwf
02-15-2008, 08:20 PM
as always.

i'm indian fyi. i'm not techie, i have nothing top do with body shops. and yes i'm a little offended by the streotypical crap.
i do not claim any "best and brightest status" either.
here are my questions:

to the fighting indians: what good is the removal of a country cap on it's own? sure date for india will move a bit and row a little back. but most people will still be stuck because of the annual quota. without increased GC numbers the point of country quotas is moot.

to row warriors: i guess if it benefits you it must be fair. cool. maybe i would have felt the same in your place. but tell me...i came here and did a lot of education. today in EB2 people like me (and even less qualified than me) are walking through with today's PD. i am 10 years away from a GC. any good reason? why am is so bad? so inferior? why am i penalized for my place of birth? fair? whatever...
what if the same diversity were applied by occupation? religeon? color of skin? it's still diversity...would that be ok? if not then why place of birth? i'm not asking you to give up what you have by good fortune. just seeking acknowledgement that maybe there is something not quite fair here...

anyway as for this funny accusation on all indian students being H4's, wow you can say anything you want, right?
actually india and china are in teh top 5 receipents of F1 visas, and far ahead of most countries

http://travel.state.gov/pdf/FY06AnnualReportTableXVII.pdf

now folks. STOP.
you are making me sick.

grupak
02-15-2008, 08:28 PM
as always.

actually india and china are in teh top 5 receipents of F1 visas, and far ahead of most countries

http://travel.state.gov/pdf/FY06AnnualReportTableXVII.pdf

now folks. STOP.
you are making me sick.

Thanks for the data, I had a feeling some countries were using F1 more than others. Good to have the facts straight.

This discussion is really not going anywhere. Lets stick with IV agenda and action items.

she81
02-15-2008, 09:11 PM
To all proponents of country quotas:

Well, if there is a cap for GCs then there should also be a cap on the number of H-1Bs that can be taken up by a country. There should be a cap on the number of allowable F-1 visas to a country. There should be a cap on number of employees of a particular nationality in an organization. There should be a separate line for different nationalities in supermarkets. Fair? Happy?

Btw, why is there no cap on H-1Bs or F-1s and only for GCs?

grupak
02-15-2008, 09:22 PM
To all proponents of country quotas:

Well, if there is a cap for GCs then there should also be a cap on the number of H-1Bs that can be taken up by a country. There should be a cap on the number of allowable F-1 visas to a country. There should be a cap on number of employees of a particular nationality in an organization. There should be a separate line for different nationalities in supermarkets. Fair? Happy?

Btw, why is there no cap on H-1Bs or F-1s and only for GCs?

Everyone lets not continue this discussion because it is going beyond what IV is about. IV core's solution is the pragmatic one helping all EB. Lets direct our energy on the action items.

Mail in the letters by month end. Already few thousand letters are in. So, lets continue with the momentum. Efforts by IV and its members have already succeeded in fixing MI DL issue. Lets work on the positives. EB3 ROW has jumped ahead, and fellow IVians would benefit. So, everyone its time to be happy.

hazishak
02-15-2008, 11:48 PM
I beleive that there should be more representation of people from other countries in desi companies, but when more number of desis apply for jobs. Is it any fault of the company is they are hiring only them?.


In other words, they dont mind getting screwed by desi company.

hazishak
02-15-2008, 11:52 PM
America is about freedom and liberty and is a law abiding country. Country caps is discrimination with people of two countries which have almost half of the population in the world. I am not saying increase visas for India or China. I am only saying increase the total number of visas and then make the system FIFO so that every skilled person in this world have same access to immigration.

There is rules in every where in our daily life isn't there? You cant not sucide even if you want to.

bfadlia
02-16-2008, 12:30 AM
Reality is that you don't want to see Indians and Chinese around you. I am sure IV does not need people like you. IV does not promote nationality and we are against all the bad pracitices of the body shoppers but we don't want someone to label Indians and Chinese in this country product of bodyshopping immigration.
Most of the population are well educated , skilled professionals and labelling them that they are flooding the market is insulting. If you think that you don't have marketable skills and is difficult for you to play due to Indians and Chinese, please feel free not to come back to this website. There are many Anti-Chinese and Anti-India blogs for your agenda. I am not sure whose side you are on and who has planted you here.

Sir, first, not that I will listen to you, but you have no business telling anybody that IV doesn't need them, it's very serious when every disgruntled member decides to speak on others behalf and tell people who disagree with them they need to leave IV
second, do u have a crystal ball that allows you to know my feelings more than I do and put words in my mouth that i didn't say.. when i say that bodyshops participated in creating the disproportionate lines for india and china where do you get an insult or conclude that i want indians and chinese to disappear or that i feel i lack marketable skills..
stick to arguments please instead of these endless fabrications.

bestia
02-16-2008, 05:40 AM
Guys, let's straigthen one thing out. I have heard here things like "flooded the market" or "why 90% of company are people of certain nationality". Well.. It's a very natural process, and it happened, happens, and will happen, and it's normal. Look at this scenario. Not to touch any nation, I would use Krakozhia as example.

Suppose you are from Krakozhia, you are pursuing American Dream, you found clients, you secured some funds and you are ready to open up a business and do something. Now you need people, you have two places to look up: American or foreign. Looking employee in the US is extremely expensive and risky business. 4 out 5 candidates will have no clue what's written in their resumes, will not want to work for you, will chill 2-3 months until you fire them, will be doing only one thing - sending resumes for a new job with better salary. Trying to hire Americans without good HR will lead your business to the dead end.

So you will look into foreign market. Where? Are you gonna go to China/Russia/India? Where you don't speak their language? Don't know local specifics? Of course you will go to your "Krakozhia", where you know people, where you know universities, and what kinda people graduate from where. So you will build a team and bring here - start working. Here is another fact - about 80% of jobs in the US people get through references. Yes, companies prefer to hire friends of employees, because they don't have to spend resources filtering people from the street. "Are you sure he is a right guy for the job?" - that's it, the guy gets hired. So, your first team will bring their friends/relatives - all "Krakozhians". And from the business point of view - it's the best way. It's not racism, not discrimination, not invasion - just business. You are just doing what is best for your business... business doesn't have races or ethnics groups. And btw, CEO is REQUIRED BY LAW to maximize profits. If hiring foreigner will be more profitable, then you are required in front of your shareholders to do so.

Only when the company will grow large, have good HR - then the company can afford hiring everybody from everywhere. And US government knows and accepts that, and it's happened in the US history many times. 100/200 years ago there were Irish, German shops. 80 years ago there were Italian shops. Nothing horrible happened, they all eventually melted. I don't see anything wrong that there are Indian or Jewish, or Russian shops. They will eventually melt in and become regular American companies.

mbawa2574
02-16-2008, 09:21 AM
Sir, first, not that I will listen to you, but you have no business telling anybody that IV doesn't need them, it's very serious when every disgruntled member decides to speak on others behalf and tell people who disagree with them they need to leave IV
second, do u have a crystal ball that allows you to know my feelings more than I do and put words in my mouth that i didn't say.. when i say that bodyshops participated in creating the disproportionate lines for india and china where do you get an insult or conclude that i want indians and chinese to disappear or that i feel i lack marketable skills..
stick to arguments please instead of these endless fabrications.

Did you not write in your post said that Indians and Chinese are flooding US via bodyshopping. DO read your earlier posts before writing back here.You can speak whatever but no one will listen to your racism and bigotry at least not here. U got problems with these Indians and Chinese go somewhere else and release your bigotry. You never answered my question about rally participation since you have been planted here by some anti-immigrant org for obvious reasons. Members like you are trying to divide IV based on race and there is no place for you here.So again I will say that get out of here if you have problems with race.

mbawa2574
02-16-2008, 09:27 AM
No. I can't understand fairshot and equality when major bodyshops from a certain nationality flood the market here with people from that certain nationality, u keep ignoring that and coming back to the stupid suggestion that it's only because u have more talent
suit urself, anyone who argues with you reasonably, tell them they are wrong and make assumptions about their motives and insult and alienate more members of your organization
good luck

Is this not racism ??

bfadlia
02-16-2008, 11:59 AM
Guys, let's straigthen one thing out. I have heard here things like "flooded the market" or "why 90% of company are people of certain nationality". Well.. It's a very natural process, and it happened, happens, and will happen, and it's normal. Look at this scenario. Not to touch any nation, I would use Krakozhia as example.

Suppose you are from Krakozhia, you are pursuing American Dream, you found clients, you secured some funds and you are ready to open up a business and do something. Now you need people, you have two places to look up: American or foreign. Looking employee in the US is extremely expensive and risky business. 4 out 5 candidates will have no clue what's written in their resumes, will not want to work for you, will chill 2-3 months until you fire them, will be doing only one thing - sending resumes for a new job with better salary. Trying to hire Americans without good HR will lead your business to the dead end.

So you will look into foreign market. Where? Are you gonna go to China/Russia/India? Where you don't speak their language? Don't know local specifics? Of course you will go to your "Krakozhia", where you know people, where you know universities, and what kinda people graduate from where. So you will build a team and bring here - start working. Here is another fact - about 80% of jobs in the US people get through references. Yes, companies prefer to hire friends of employees, because they don't have to spend resources filtering people from the street. "Are you sure he is a right guy for the job?" - that's it, the guy gets hired. So, your first team will bring their friends/relatives - all "Krakozhians". And from the business point of view - it's the best way. It's not racism, not discrimination, not invasion - just business. You are just doing what is best for your business... business doesn't have races or ethnics groups. And btw, CEO is REQUIRED BY LAW to maximize profits. If hiring foreigner will be more profitable, then you are required in front of your shareholders to do so.

Only when the company will grow large, have good HR - then the company can afford hiring everybody from everywhere. And US government knows and accepts that, and it's happened in the US history many times. 100/200 years ago there were Irish, German shops. 80 years ago there were Italian shops. Nothing horrible happened, they all eventually melted. I don't see anything wrong that there are Indian or Jewish, or Russian shops. They will eventually melt in and become regular American companies.

dear Bestia, I don't recall anyone calling the situation you described racism. I for one said it's human nature's favorism and, like it or not, it does jeopordize diversity, so you will have a hard time convincing US to let go something it wants for the sake of something else just because it's better for you.
Please note that I did not start this discussion and I hate it as much as you, but the ones who started it did so by repeatedly saying that the disproportionate indian chinese lines here are mainly because they are 1- better and brighter than the rest of us 2- more marketable than us 3- more educated than us 4- all of the above
can't you see the blatant racism in these explanations and my right as an ROW to be offended by them? I never intended to run down the indians and chinese when i say that no these are not the reasons, we all have equal skills and that the real reasons are the higher population of india and china and the skewed methods of bodyshops..
i'll stop responding to the other idiot who has nothing but insults and conspiracy theories instead of real arguments, someone doesn't realize that 90% of IV members did not attend the rally, yes throw that in their faces and ask them to leave whenever you run out of idiotic arguments. really pathetic!

kuhelica2000
02-16-2008, 12:34 PM
My friend, writing in bold font doesn't make your argument bolder. An argument is bold by the underlying merit of the argument. Where did I mention anything about race?

Even if I had said that there is fraud and corruption in India, it would not be considered as a racist comment. Every year Transparency International generates a list of most corrupt nations. Ever wonder why India is on that list. Ever wonder why out of all places only in India US visa officers are instructed to do technical interview for IT visa applicants? You are living in complete denial and trying to play the race card whenever you get an opportunity.

Fraud and corruption is prevalent everywhere incuding India and a prepondernece of the bodyshops are nothing but a factory of producing overnight "IT Talents". Accept this is as one of the problem of this retrogression.

You are accusing people from India for using wrong credentials for picking up H1b/L1 jobs. This is ridiculous and pretty racist.

akred
02-16-2008, 01:10 PM
Fraud and corruption is prevalent everywhere incuding India and a prepondernece of the bodyshops are nothing but a factory of producing overnight "IT Talents". Accept this is as one of the problem of this retrogression.

No one is going to fall for or accept this type of torn shirt, open fly argument. Retrogression is caused by insufficient GC numbers and worsened for some countries due to the country caps. The fact that there is corruption in India or any of the other random reasons you are trotting out in no way mitigates the fact that people are being forced to wait after fulfilling all of the qualifying criteria set forth by the US government.

mallu
02-16-2008, 01:14 PM
.......Even if I had said that there is fraud and corruption in India, it would not be considered as a racist comment. Every year Transparency International generates a list of most corrupt nations. Ever wonder why India is on that list. Ever wonder why out of all places only in India US visa officers are instructed to do technical interview for IT visa applicants? You are living in complete denial and trying to play the race card whenever you get an opportunity.

There may be truth in it. But not completely so. There are are lot of well qualified and experienced people. But there may be frauds too.


Fraud and corruption is prevalent everywhere incuding India and a prepondernece of the bodyshops are nothing but a factory of producing overnight "IT Talents". Accept this is as one of the problem of this retrogression.

Again it is a mixture of all kind of types coming through the consultants.
So, the issue is that there are lot of qualified and experienced people in India that are willing to come to USA to seek better opportunities ( although these says , the students from top universities of India may not want to come here ) and i believe it is not that the consultant companies dump 'all who can walk' into USA. There may be a certain percentage that are 'deficient'.
So, my main point is that , by virtue of larger population, India has larger number of graduates/employable folks. Plus many of them learn English ( if i need to communicate with people in other parts of India, i use English ) , may be with thick accent.

mbawa2574
02-16-2008, 01:14 PM
dear Bestia, I don't recall anyone calling the situation you described racism. I for one said it's human nature's favorism and, like it or not, it does jeopordize diversity, so you will have a hard time convincing US to let go something it wants for the sake of something else just because it's better for you.
Please note that I did not start this discussion and I hate it as much as you, but the ones who started it did so by repeatedly saying that the disproportionate indian chinese lines here are mainly because they are 1- better and brighter than the rest of us 2- more marketable than us 3- more educated than us 4- all of the above
can't you see the blatant racism in these explanations and my right as an ROW to be offended by them? I never intended to run down the indians and chinese when i say that no these are not the reasons, we all have equal skills and that the real reasons are the higher population of india and china and the skewed methods of bodyshops..
i'll stop responding to the other idiot who has nothing but insults and conspiracy theories instead of real arguments, someone doesn't realize that 90% of IV members did not attend the rally, yes throw that in their faces and ask them to leave whenever you run out of idiotic arguments. really pathetic!
You are a racist b* who just thinks about yourself and you have been planted here by other camp. U must have come out of some gutter country where democracy has no meaning and you don't know meaning of majority. You are favoring an agenda because it is good for you today. get the hell of this website. You don't belong here you racist bigot. May be we will need to track your ip address and throw you from here at some point of time.You hate Indians and Chinese and come back to IV where we have majority. This is not going to happen.

mbawa2574
02-16-2008, 01:21 PM
My friend, writing in bold font doesn't make your argument bolder. An argument is bold by the underlying merit of the argument. Where did I mention anything about race?

Even if I had said that there is fraud and corruption in India, it would not be considered as a racist comment. Every year Transparency International generates a list of most corrupt nations. Ever wonder why India is on that list. Ever wonder why out of all places only in India US visa officers are instructed to do technical interview for IT visa applicants? You are living in complete denial and trying to play the race card whenever you get an opportunity.

Fraud and corruption is prevalent everywhere incuding India and a prepondernece of the bodyshops are nothing but a factory of producing overnight "IT Talents". Accept this is as one of the problem of this retrogression.

Don't make corruption in India as an incentive to thrash Indians. Majority of Indian H1b/L1 like any other community are well skilled professionals. It should not give you an incentive to thrash Indians or India. I am sure you belong to India and I am pretty depressed to see some one trash his own country to get some cheap publicity on this blog. I am not playing a race card but Yes I will defend Indians or Chinese for any attacks by bigots like you.

bfadlia
02-16-2008, 01:33 PM
There may be truth in it. But not completely so. There are are lot of well qualified and experienced people. But there may be frauds too.



Again it is a mixture of all kind of types coming through the consultants.
So, the issue is that there are lot of qualified and experienced people in India that are willing to come to USA to seek better opportunities ( although these says , the students from top universities of India may not want to come here ) and i believe it is not that the consultant companies dump 'all who can walk' into USA. There may be a certain percentage that are 'deficient'.
So, my main point is that , by virtue of larger population, India has larger number of graduates/employable folks. Plus many of them learn English ( if i need to communicate with people in other parts of India, i use English ) , may be with thick accent.


mallu, i appreciate the rational arguments you made. But still a lot here falls under "yes we agree bodyshop practices are unfortunate, but let's pretend it has no concequences and it never harmed anybody" That is wrong.. I would hear time and again from ROW friends who land lucritive job offers here but when it's time to apply for H1 they fail because a handful of big bodyshops consume tens of thousands of visas for the exclusive offering in their homeland.. then we hear people now ask the remaining ROWs who managed to stay here against big odds to take another one for the team and help alleviate the problem of the big lines these bodyshops created and claiming this is for the sake of fairness and equality.

i still see other posts with nothing but barking.. ok let it be, we can't do without those who have nothing to offer other than that.

kuhelica2000
02-16-2008, 01:41 PM
Defending one's country is one thing and defending fraud and corruption is another thing. Yes, there are lots of great universitites in India like IITs, IIMs, and several Regional Engineering Colleges. But guess what, when it comes to EB2/EB3 genuine IITs and overnight (okay maybe three months) bodyshop graduates are treated the same way. It is for the sake of our profession that we need to weed out these frauds.

Don't make corruption in India as an incentive to thrash Indians. Majority of Indian H1b/L1 like any other community are well skilled professionals. It should not give you an incentive to thrash Indians or India. I am sure you belong to India and I am pretty depressed to see some one trash his own country to get some cheap publicity on this blog. I am not playing a race card but Yes I will defend Indians or Chinese for any attacks by bigots like you.

akred
02-16-2008, 01:53 PM
I didn't generalize. I said preponderence meaning "a lot of" cases with L1/B1/H1 and I am also not denying the fact the India is doing a great job in producing IT skills in great numbers. I am saying how they end up in America in greater numbers than any other country. China, Pakistan, Israel also produces lots of IT gradutes but they don't have the bodyshop connection to land here with an NIIT certificate.

Delusional? Quite a few European countries spring to mind before this one.

NKR
02-16-2008, 03:26 PM
I beleive Kuhelica and bfadlia have been planted by anti-immigrants to spread poison and hate in people's mind. looking at the number of posts they have posted, it seems like they are new members who are out there to sabotage the reforms that we have been talking about.

We do not have to spend our energy and time answering each and every post of theirs. they do not deserve our time nor they are intelligent enough to rationalise.

I and a couple of us have been repeatedly telling that we do not want ROW people to be affected nor we want country quota to be removed, but they have been targetting our race, our country, it has jealously writ all over... Just ignore them and move on. the more forward we move the more backward they stay..

bestia
02-16-2008, 03:32 PM
dear Bestia, I don't recall anyone calling the situation you described racism. I for one said it's human nature's favorism and, like it or not, it does jeopordize diversity, so you will have a hard time convincing US to let go something it wants for the sake of something else just because it's better for you.

...

I still fail to see how country caps on Employment Based immigration serve the purpose of diversity. Look, people from India/China with H1B visas and pending AOS applications are already here, right? They are here and will be here regardless of whether they get GCs now or after 10 years. Many of them bought houses, have families, American born kids. How making them wait for years is gonna serve the purpose of diversity? You think if an Indian guy will be using AC21/EAD for years, going to finger printing every year, going through secondary security check on airports, in time he is gonna evolve into something less Indian? It's gonna be the same people but with different documents in their pockets.

For diversity purposes there is lottery, and the purpose of that lottery is exactly that - the diversity. Also, if the government wants diversity, they should have immigration program like Canada has. Where people are issued permanent residency BEFORE coming to the country and spending years working for that country.

bfadlia
02-16-2008, 03:53 PM
I beleive Kuhelica and bfadlia have been planted by anti-immigrants to spread poison and hate in people's mind. looking at the number of posts they have posted, it seems like they are new members who are out there to sabotage the reforms that we have been talking about.

We do not have to spend our energy and time answering each and every post of theirs. they do not deserve our time nor they are intelligent enough to rationalise.

I and a couple of us have been repeatedly telling that we do not want ROW people to be affected nor we want country quota to be removed, but they have been targetting our race, our country, it has jealously writ all over... Just ignore them and move on. the more forward we move the more backward they stay..


man.. u can click on a user and see all the posts he sent, so good luck
i must have joined two years and participated in topics all this time so that i today i get a chance to destroy IV.. plz put down the 007 book and listen for once..
u can't see that people started belittling ROWs here first.. then i admit it's a waste of time to try to reason with u

bfadlia
02-16-2008, 03:57 PM
I still fail to see how country caps on Employment Based immigration serve the purpose of diversity. Look, people from India/China with H1B visas and pending AOS applications are already here, right? They are here and will be here regardless of whether they get GCs now or after 10 years. Many of them bought houses, have families, American born kids. How making them wait for years is gonna serve the purpose of diversity? You think if an Indian guy will be using AC21/EAD for years, going to finger printing every year, going through secondary security check on airports, in time he is gonna evolve into something less Indian? It's gonna be the same people but with different documents in their pockets.

For diversity purposes there is lottery, and the purpose of that lottery is exactly that - the diversity. Also, if the government wants diversity, they should have immigration program like Canada has. Where people are issued permanent residency BEFORE coming to the country and spending years working for that country.


bestia, the people here keep saying "i don't see the reasoning in x, then x must be wrong and should change"
u believe US intended diversity in DV lottery only and by mistake put it in DV, FB and EB.. you are entitled to your opinion, but good luck getting someone to take u seriosly with this argument
again..i only mentioned race when people kept saying we (certainly their race) are better and brighter, outside correcting that context i would never have discussed it this way.
peace.. have a soccer game now.. c u later

NKR
02-16-2008, 04:22 PM
man.. u can click on a user and see all the posts he sent, so good luck
i must have joined two years and participated in topics all this time so that i today i get a chance to destroy IV.. plz put down the 007 book and listen for once..
u can't see that people started belittling ROWs here first.. then i admit it's a waste of time to try to reason with u

You guys see everything wrong with us. If the spouse works, you will say they are taking away your jobs. If they study, you say that they pay instate fees where as you pay international fee. If they do MBA and become your manager, you will say that not only they are getting jobs, now they are bossing over us. If they stay at home, you will find wrong with that too saying that they are not doing anything but are getting all the benefits..

It does not matter if spouses stay at home and lose years of salaries which translates to more than the international fees that some people pay. It does not matter that we have to face hurdles in each and every step of the way, be it when getting medical insurance or life insurance or while traveling. We have to renew visas every year by paying thousands, we have to renew our licences. We have to go for visa stamping even if we have gone for an emergency visit. We have to remain in the same job without growth, without promotion. Do you know it is not easy for a H4 person to get a credit card to start building credit history?.

If you have a solution to reduce all of our pain without increasing the waiting time for ROW people say it here cause that is what we need and what USCIS will appreciate. You do not have to bring corruption and all that crap into picture. That can be another discussion. If I have to pay fees to get some things faster then I will call it nothing but organized bribery within legal framework. That is what is happening in countries which you say is less corrupt, but then why do you care, you enjoy your soccer game....

mallu
02-16-2008, 04:24 PM
According to first post in following thread ,
http://immigration-information.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4285

attorney Ron Gotcher says ( he got info ),

"
Last night, at a meeting of the American Immigration Lawyer's Assocation Southern California chapter, Charles Oppenheim spoke. Mr. Oppenheim is the officer within the Visa Office tasked with calculating visa bulletin cutoff dates each month. He offered the following thoughts as to cutoff date movement in the upcoming months:

* In April, India and China EB2 will be set at 12/01/2003
* EB3 for India and China will slow down for the rest of the fiscal year"

bestia
02-16-2008, 04:36 PM
bestia, the people here keep saying "i don't see the reasoning in x, then x must be wrong and should change"
u believe US intended diversity in DV lottery only and by mistake put it in DV, FB and EB.. you are entitled to your opinion, but good luck getting someone to take u seriosly with this argument
again..i only mentioned race when people kept saying we (certainly their race) are better and brighter, outside correcting that context i would never have discussed it this way.
peace.. have a soccer game now.. c u later

I guess, you still have to answer the question: "How keeping people who are in US, having kids and families, on EAD/AP for years serves the purpose of diversity?"

Ow, I can convince a lot of people, by saying that US government wasted thousands of visas for countries without any country caps. Therefore "diversity" is a lousy and crappy excuse, the real problem is a complete mess, obsolete laws, corruption, and laziness of USCIS.

bfadlia
02-19-2008, 03:20 PM
You are a racist b* who just thinks about yourself and you have been planted here by other camp. U must have come out of some gutter country where democracy has no meaning and you don't know meaning of majority. You are favoring an agenda because it is good for you today. get the hell of this website. You don't belong here you racist bigot. May be we will need to track your ip address and throw you from here at some point of time.You hate Indians and Chinese and come back to IV where we have majority. This is not going to happen.

x: you are making idiotic arguments
y: if you think indians and chinese are idiots then you need to leave IV

please don't stop. your posts speak volumes on ur amazing mentality. i'm still amused.
i have no problem listening to all that a* b* f* vocabulary, it only reflects on ur maturity, but there is a serious problem when someone continuously tries to drag race into a discussion that does not relate to it.. then in his childish tantrums decides to speak on IV's behalf.. people should be advised to stop doing that.

bfadlia
02-19-2008, 03:28 PM
You guys see everything wrong with us. If the spouse works, you will say they are taking away your jobs. If they study, you say that they pay instate fees where as you pay international fee. If they do MBA and become your manager, you will say that not only they are getting jobs, now they are bossing over us. If they stay at home, you will find wrong with that too saying that they are not doing anything but are getting all the benefits..

It does not matter if spouses stay at home and lose years of salaries which translates to more than the international fees that some people pay. It does not matter that we have to face hurdles in each and every step of the way, be it when getting medical insurance or life insurance or while traveling. We have to renew visas every year by paying thousands, we have to renew our licences. We have to go for visa stamping even if we have gone for an emergency visit. We have to remain in the same job without growth, without promotion. Do you know it is not easy for a H4 person to get a credit card to start building credit history?.

If you have a solution to reduce all of our pain without increasing the waiting time for ROW people say it here cause that is what we need and what USCIS will appreciate. You do not have to bring corruption and all that crap into picture. That can be another discussion. If I have to pay fees to get some things faster then I will call it nothing but organized bribery within legal framework. That is what is happening in countries which you say is less corrupt, but then why do you care, you enjoy your soccer game....

NKR, my friend, i'm puzzled, u speak of in-state tuition, visa stamping, life insurance.. how is that different for ROWs from others, we are all the same in that, we are all the same being skilled immigrants all of us, when i complain that someone says indians and chinese are here in larger numbers because they are best and brightest and ask them to be sensitive it doesn't mean that we all suffer the same hardships.. when i state the fact that bodyshops contributed to the longer lines for some countries i don't say i'm indifferent to your suffering, but i also say it can't be fixed by making another group suffer
peace..

bfadlia
02-19-2008, 03:35 PM
I guess, you still have to answer the question: "How keeping people who are in US, having kids and families, on EAD/AP for years serves the purpose of diversity?"

Ow, I can convince a lot of people, by saying that US government wasted thousands of visas for countries without any country caps. Therefore "diversity" is a lousy and crappy excuse, the real problem is a complete mess, obsolete laws, corruption, and laziness of USCIS.

bestia, USCIS are allowed to use the unused visas from one category in another even if they exceed the quota, they just choose to be inefficient and not do that. If there are excess ROW visas unused, we all strongly support that they be used for other groups.. but decreasing the wait of one group at the expense of increasing the wait of another.. u'll have to lose some people with that direction

NKR
02-19-2008, 03:51 PM
NKR, my friend, i'm puzzled, u speak of in-state tuition, visa stamping, life insurance.. how is that different for ROWs from others, we are all the same in that, we are all the same being skilled immigrants all of us, when i complain that someone says indians and chinese are here in larger numbers because they are best and brightest and ask them to be sensitive it doesn't mean that we all suffer the same hardships.. when i state the fact that bodyshops contributed to the longer lines for some countries i don't say i'm indifferent to your suffering, but i also say it can't be fixed by making another group suffer
peace..

You have to look at the context in which my comments were made. Somebody said that H4 spouses go to college and pay instate fees but they have to pay international fees. I never said that ROW people do not have any of those problems but it just that we have to endure that for some more years. Having said that, I reiterate that I want my GC fast but not at the expense of ROW people. They do not have to endure a longer wait.

I thought this thread was given a decent burial, I could trust only you to bring this thread back to life with your hidden agenda of driving a wedge between Indians/Chinese and ROW.

bfadlia
02-19-2008, 04:09 PM
You have to look at the context in which my comments were made. Somebody said that H4 spouses go to college and pay instate fees but they have to pay international fees. I never said that ROW people do not have any of those problems but it just that we have to endure that for some more years. Having said that, I reiterate that I want my GC fast but not at the expense of ROW people. They do not have to endure a longer wait.

I thought this thread was given a decent burial, I could trust only you to bring this thread back to life with your hidden agenda of driving a wedge between Indians/Chinese and ROW.

NKR, you said u r replying to someone else.. i don't know why u then quoted me in ur message and in the end added that I didn't care about u.. is it normal that we run down each other for no reason.. what bad thing did i ever say about u..
sorry that u got the impression the thread was dead, i was away (soccer then resting u know) and came back to see someone else left me hate/curse messages, and speaking on IV's behalf and no one cared to tell him that both acts were not appropriate.. tell me why is it that u (and may be others) agree that removing the country limit is wrong and that saying some nationality is better and brighter than others is also wrong yet not one is defending me when i make those same arguments and get insulted in the process..

NKR
02-19-2008, 04:19 PM
NKR, you said u r replying to someone else.. i don't know why u then quoted me in ur message and in the end added that I didn't care about u.. is it normal that we run down each other for no reason.. what bad thing did i ever say about u..
sorry that u got the impression the thread was dead, i was away (soccer then resting u know) and came back to see someone else left me hate/curse messages, and speaking on IV's behalf and no one cared to tell him that both acts were not appropriate.. tell me why is it that u (and may be others) agree that removing the country limit is wrong and that saying some nationality is better and brighter than others is also wrong yet not one is defending me when i make those same arguments and get insulted in the process..

.

You both were talking on the same lines and I had quote you too. Look at my previous posts. I never said that the country limit should be taken off.

Just point us to the post which said that Indians/Chinese are better and brighter. I think you cooked up that story.

Hope you had enough rest after the soccer game.

bfadlia
02-19-2008, 04:39 PM
here you are.. check below and let me know who are the best and brightest referenced below who would benefit from removing the cap..
if u show me i had a misunderstanding, i will appologize to everyone on this forum.
PS: appreciate u bearing with me, but not much ur conspiracy theory inclinations :)

02-14-2008, 02:34 PM
mbawa2574
Guys stop this damn fighting !!!
Let's stay united and focus on the orignal agenda. Removing country based caps from Employment Based Green cards is a valid agenda and is been there before this VB popped up. Skills don't need a cap.Business should be able to hire best and brightest here without any country limits.



02-15-2008, 05:38 PM
dingudi
If India is producing more people qualified in these skills then its not their fault.


02-15-2008, 07:49 PM
mbawa2574
U got problems with Indians and Chinese

Most of the population are well educated , skilled professionals and labelling them that they are flooding the market is insulting. If you think that you don't have marketable skills and is difficult for you to play due to Indians and Chinese, please feel free not to come back to this website. There are many Anti-Chinese and Anti-India blogs for your agenda. I am not sure whose side you are on and who has planted you here.

Hassan11
02-19-2008, 04:49 PM
NKR,

I am not taking anybody's side. I didn't want to get involved in this discussion but if you read this thread from the start you will know that bfadlia didn't make that story up (or as you said , cooked that story up) someone before used that argument implying that only the best brighest come from 1 country (see original quote below) which is offensive to al lot of people here on this forum from other countries. Again, we are all in this wait together. we all go through the same hurdles and the same problems. we sympathize with each other and feel each other's pain, but making 1 group's wait a little shorter on the expense of another group is not a convincing argument.

Thanks

see below:

Originally Posted by mbawa2574
Let's stay united and focus on the orignal agenda. Removing country based caps from Employment Based Green cards is a valid agenda and is been there before this VB popped up. Skills don't need a cap.Business should be able to hire best and brightest here without any country limits.

Enforce country cap on Family based GC/DV lotterry for the diversity sake. FYI India and China don't have access to DV Lottery. This system is insane and let's not fight among ourselves to defend this crappy immigration system. . U may see ROW retrogress to 1998 in next VB and what will u say then ?. Bottom line is Fighting will not take us anywhere and changing this unpredictable system will be the only way to go.

You both were talking on the same lines and I had quote you too. Look at my previous posts. I never said that the country limit should be taken off.

Just point us to the post which said that Indians/Chinese are better and brighter. I think you cooked up that story.

Hope you had enough rest after the soccer game.

bfadlia
02-19-2008, 04:59 PM
NKR,

I am not taking anybody's side. I didn't want to get involved in this discussion but if you read this thread from the start you will know that bfadlia didn't make that story up (or as you said , cooked that story up) someone before used that argument implying that only the best brighest come from 1 country (see original quote below) which is offensive to al lot of people here on this forum from other countries. Again, we are all in this wait together. we all go through the same hurdles and the same problems. we sympathize with each other and feel each other's pain, but making 1 group's wait a little shorter on the expense of another group is not a convincing argument.

Thanks

see below:

Originally Posted by mbawa2574
Let's stay united and focus on the orignal agenda. Removing country based caps from Employment Based Green cards is a valid agenda and is been there before this VB popped up. Skills don't need a cap.Business should be able to hire best and brightest here without any country limits.

Enforce country cap on Family based GC/DV lotterry for the diversity sake. FYI India and China don't have access to DV Lottery. This system is insane and let's not fight among ourselves to defend this crappy immigration system. . U may see ROW retrogress to 1998 in next VB and what will u say then ?. Bottom line is Fighting will not take us anywhere and changing this unpredictable system will be the only way to go.


thank you so much Hassan11
i will stress that i respect the education in india and china and know they rank high in math and science education.. but just wanted to add so does many other countries (eastern europe, korea, and middle east for example)
if we agree that people shouldn't speak on IV's behalf and accuse others of being trators and ask them to leave IV when no one gave them that right.. i'll be so happy if the thread is closed then