PDA

View Full Version : Bad News : Michigan will NOT give DLs to Temporary Visa Holders


walking_dude
01-22-2008, 11:13 AM
Friends,

What was feared has come true. MI SOS (DMV) has passed the rule denying DLs to newer applicants on Temporary visas. Rules are yet to be made for renewals. But based on statements by SOS Terri Ann Lynd, I wouldn't be surprised if Temporary visa holders are denied DLs too ( since the rule will be based on interpretation of MI law by State Attorney General which says that only permanent residents can be given DL in Michigan)

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Applying_for_lic_or_ID_SOS_428_222146_7.pdf (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Applying_for_lic_or_ID_SOS_428_222146_7.pdf)


http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127--183894--,00.html


Ms. Lynd hopes temporary visa holders can drive using home country licences. She doesn't understand that Indians need IDLs too, which they can get only in their home country. She doesn't understand that many may not have DLs in their home countries (esp. Indians who came here as students) . I'm not surprised if mine has expired by now! For getting IDL we need to go back to our home country and get it from there. This is the gift by State of Michigan to immigrants on the occassion of day to remember the greatest humanitarian of our times - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

anilsal
01-22-2008, 11:26 AM
I do hope other states will not take MI stance as a precedent.

Awareness about the existence of legal skilled immigrant applicants is the need of the hour.

walking_dude
01-22-2008, 11:38 AM
How will lawmakers understand the existence of legal skilled immigrants, when barely 133 members out of 25,000 have shown the willingness to do a simple task like writing letters to the President? As far as lawmakers are concerned - we don't speak up so we don't count.

Dear Friends, time has come for us to speak up or face really tough times ahead of us. Recession, lay off, no DLs - do you think you can survive it all?

For pete's sake, write the damn letter if you care for yourselves and your family.

I do hope other states will not take MI stance as a precedent.

Awareness about the existence of legal skilled immigrant applicants is the need of the hour.

claudia255
01-22-2008, 12:05 PM
I do hope other states will not take MI stance as a precedent.

Awareness about the existence of legal skilled immigrant applicants is the need of the hour.

Expect other states to follow suit if there is not an outcry from the legal immigrant community.
This brings a few questions in view of this new law:
-If you are pulled over for a minor traffic stop, and show your foreign driver license, how would the police officer know you are here legally? I suppose you will have to carry your passport at all times with your I-94 and valid visa stamp.

-However, if you do not have a valid visa stamp, but your H1B is still valid, how would the police officer know you are here legally? Maybe Michigan is training troopers on basic immigration rules and regulations.

-Regarding travel, would you be able to travel with your foreign passport even with an expired visa stamp without raising eyebrows?

-What about refugees and asylum seekers who have an EAD but have not obtained LPR yet? Would they be able to drive? There are refugees who faced hardship in their home country and I doubt they all have a driver's license when they come here.

Wouldn't this make it impossible to live in Michigan for ALL immigrants? Michigan will be driving undocumented immigrants away from their state, but won't they risk driving aways hundreds of students, workers and researchers on temporary visas?
This will surely bring comments from AILA.

arnab221
01-22-2008, 12:07 PM
This is a stupid and fool hardy move .

1) Now immigrants will come to Michigan with their foreign driving skills ( maybe from Right hand drive contries ) and will drive in Left had drive style rightaway . No trips to the DMV . This will increase the risk on current drivers .

2) No tension on renewing US licences . I-94 expiry has no relation to license .

3) How will the police allocate points to Foreign licenses on driving offences. Maybe Ms Terri Lynn will introduce another law to arrest drivers with foreign licences who commit voilations and initiate deportation proceeding against them ( of course after deducting federal and state taxes from their salary ) . After all you are an "outstanding resident , but temporary ".

4) What will be the insurance rate for the foreign drivers . Insurance companies will not have to either charge foreign drivers at the max rate or query the foreign drivers record ( which is not feasible ) .


Looks like the strategy that the Govt has adopted behind the scenes is one of attrition .They on one had will speak about the greatness of immigrants and on the other hand create trouble on each and every activity that helps settle an immigrant . WOW !! Keep up the good work Ms Lynn . I am proud of your strategy and leading the way . ( Sic ) . :mad:

go_guy123
01-22-2008, 12:14 PM
In Ontario as well gettting a license is a major pain for both
immigrants and locals.
Some people get from otehr states like alberta

rb_248
01-22-2008, 12:21 PM
Excerpt----

"Michigan has many outstanding residents who contribute greatly to our economy and society even though they're here on a temporary basis," Land said. "Businesses rely on these talented individuals as well. Under the attorney general's opinion, those who are in the country legally but on temporary student or work visas are ineligible for a Michigan license, though most still can drive using the license of their home country. We need to reconsider that aspect of the law to avoid unintended consequences for individuals or job providers. I encourage citizens to voice their support for our proposal and contact their legislators."

It is just Attorney General's opinion. They will revise this. They can't be this stupid.

atlfp
01-22-2008, 12:31 PM
Law makers aren't stupid. When they overlook something, it means they do not care. It's michigan after all... Try the same in California and see if it will pass. What do you do? Leave michigan and seek somewhere else. Let the poor state to get even poorer.


How will lawmakers understand the existence of legal skilled immigrants, when barely 133 members out of 25,000 have shown the willingness to do a simple task like writing letters to the President? As far as lawmakers are concerned - we don't speak up so we don't count.

Dear Friends, time has come for us to speak up or face really tough times ahead of us. Recession, lay off, no DLs - do you think you can survive it all?

For pete's sake, write the damn letter if you care for yourselves and your family.

walking_dude
01-22-2008, 12:35 PM
It's no longer just an opinion. It's the rule by SOS (MI DMV).

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Applying_for_lic_or_ID_SOS_428_222146_7.pdf

Ms. Lynds rhetoric doesn't include any solution to the issue if you read it carefully! She says she has forwarded a proposal to Michigan legislature (meaning - passed the buck). This needs to be passed by Michigan legisalture, meaning - a change in state law is needed to give DLs to temporary visa holders. She refers to her plan on "upgraded" standard licences here as a solution.

Full text of her proposal is here - http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127--181283--,00.html. Please note that it's just a proposal. It needs to be passed by Michigan state legisalture to be the law..

Wish us good luck with that in the prevailing climate of bad economy, bad public image of immigration , and the impending recession.

Excerpt----

"Michigan has many outstanding residents who contribute greatly to our economy and society even though they're here on a temporary basis," Land said. "Businesses rely on these talented individuals as well. Under the attorney general's opinion, those who are in the country legally but on temporary student or work visas are ineligible for a Michigan license, though most still can drive using the license of their home country. We need to reconsider that aspect of the law to avoid unintended consequences for individuals or job providers. I encourage citizens to voice their support for our proposal and contact their legislators."

It is just Attorney General's opinion. They will revise this. They can't be this stupid.

axp817
01-22-2008, 12:40 PM
By temporary immigrants, do they mean F-1/H-1B visa holders? I am assuming EAD holders are excluded since they are NOT temporary immigrants or non-immigrants.

It is still very unfortunate, though.

bombay
01-22-2008, 12:46 PM
one more link

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hH2j7vP44QWG1UC7r32_7WgE7mDwD8UAMCJG1

As most of us have EAD and have completed 180 days look for a job elsewhere. If anybody is looking for a job in power electronics field. I would help you with local rectruiters in califonia

walking_dude
01-22-2008, 12:50 PM
EAD holders , despite all the hype and hoopla, are temporary too - as EAD is a temporary work authorization. EAD is not a 'virtual GC ' as it's claimed by some.

Read requirement (2) in MI SOS rule and the accepted documents. Does it include EAD anywhere?

By temporary immigrants, do they mean F-1/H-1B visa holders? I am assuming EAD holders are excluded since they are NOT temporary immigrants or non-immigrants.

It is still very unfortunate, though.

schhettr
01-22-2008, 12:53 PM
What is the current procedure for renewing DL in MI if you are on H1B and have pending I-485?
Comments from someone whose been through the current process would be appreciated.

bigboy007
01-22-2008, 12:54 PM
Thats a fools paradise. I think they are pretty well aware of consequences ,if one doesnt have US license who will provide insurance how can they be credit checked? there are so many things tied to it rather going back to home country. Its insane. I dont think all other states will start doing this , many states already became a pain with myriad of dox required. May be just MI doesnt need any more immigrants with much of unemployment already. Thats the implicit message so sick of it.

By temporary immigrants, do they mean F-1/H-1B visa holders? I am assuming EAD holders are excluded since they are NOT temporary immigrants or non-immigrants.

It is still very unfortunate, though.

walking_dude
01-22-2008, 12:54 PM
Media is biased! It speaks only about illegal immigrants. Doesn't include a word about legal visa holders and adjustees, who'll feel the most impact.

As, we, legal skilled immigrants don't speak up and stand for our cause - we don't count. Neither the lawmakers nor the media care for us as we don't care for our own cause.


one more link

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hH2j7vP44QWG1UC7r32_7WgE7mDwD8UAMCJG1

As most of us have EAD and have completed 180 days look for a job elsewhere. If anybody is looking for a job in power electronics field. I would help you with local rectruiters in califonia

kumar1
01-22-2008, 01:00 PM
Great MI! No wonder this state is in pathetic condition.

amitga
01-22-2008, 01:01 PM
Its will be impossible to get an insurance coverage based on Home country DL.

walking_dude
01-22-2008, 01:05 PM
Sorry friend. You are out of luck. Read the new MI SOS rule for new DL applicants.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Applying_for_lic_or_ID_SOS_428_222146_7.pdf

Similar rules are going to be issued for renewals soon. Since the rule is going to be based on Michigan Attorney General's interpretation of law that only permanent residents can be issued DLs, don't keep your hopes high that Renewal rules will be much different.

Ms. Lynd as Secretary of State can only issue rules that follow MI law. She cannot change the law. She has sent a proposal to MI legislature to change the law so that legal temporary visa holders can be issued licences. Until and unless, Michigan legislature passes that law ( note that there's currently no such bill which includes Ms. Lynds proposal).

You better get your DL renewed before the new rules for renewals are issued, that is if your DL is up for renewal. ou can drive using home country licence (you need to ask SOS if your country has an agreement with MI state), or using 'International Driving Licence' (IDL) issued in your home country. IDL is usually issued for only one year and needs to be renewed every year.




What is the current procedure for renewing DL in MI if you are on H1B and have pending I-485?
Comments from someone whose been through the current process would be appreciated.

pointlesswait
01-22-2008, 01:09 PM
This whole MESS is like Schindlers List.. it’s a scam of monumental proportions..
Its like modern day slavery…earlier it was the Africans chained to do labour ..now its the third world country citizens who are facing the bonded labour trauma!!! (

The game plan is very smple: Get as many foreign (asian, third world country) students on F1—(desi, Chinese..)..entice them with an EAD for a year..then 6 years of H1..when are well settled .. lure them with the hope of a GC…and an endless wait!

If you have only 3500 GC per year..then da*& it give only 3500-F1 visas ..why do u need 70000 desis coming here to study! They want to keep their colleges going..so lure the cattle from the third world.

UR meaningless letters will not bring about a change of heart .. its a systematic dependency that is deliberately created..I am not shooting down these efforts but its totally vision less!! And not worth the effort!!!!

> Have some legal body file a law suit.. linking H1 and GC restrictions to “African Chain Gangs” of the past!.. being educated and being restrictive.. Ghanta American dream!!

I am sure no one here has spent a minute to put the phenomenal drain of foreign currency that countries like India and China are facing! Not every student gets funding…just add up the numbers of student loan debt that Indians have accumulated over the years!!!

akred
01-22-2008, 01:11 PM
I wish we'd start fighting this through the courts. Because of Real ID, the DL issue is set to impact everyone affected by retrogression.

priti8888
01-22-2008, 01:14 PM
Unbileivably stupid and foolish move...How can they even let this rule go though..This is so backward ..God..what kind of politicians govern Michigan..??

This will never ever happen in States like California,Ny etc...

kaisersose
01-22-2008, 01:20 PM
There may be more to this than meets the eye. Michigan has been reeling under unemployment troubles for quite a while now. Getting foreigners to leave the state is one way of increasing jobs for citizens. I would not be surprised if some lawmaker there came up with this bright idea of achieving this via DLs.

EAD is not a status, not even a temporary one. The correct status is pending AOS.

lotsofspace
01-22-2008, 01:23 PM
I do hope other states will not take MI stance as a precedent.

Awareness about the existence of legal skilled immigrant applicants is the need of the hour.

No I guess. I briefly watched on Lou Dobbs. 17 states are petitioning against it (Real Id). He interviewed an official from MI and was proud that they are implementing this.

grupak
01-22-2008, 01:23 PM
UR meaningless letters will not bring about a change of heart .. its a systematic dependency that is deliberately created..I am not shooting down these efforts but its totally vision less!! And not worth the effort!!!!

> Have some legal body file a law suit.. linking H1 and GC restrictions to “African Chain Gangs” of the past!.. being educated and being restrictive.. Ghanta American dream!!



I certainly understand some of your frustration, having lived in this country for long, and having lived in 6 states on both the coasts. However, we need to put the frustration into action.

You can try contacting ACLU or AILA or whatever you have in mind. Not sure if the courts can help without a change in the law. Even getting members to contribute small amount of money, and writing a letter is not easy. IV has formulated a strategy get administrative fixes, lets get behind that. If there is a better alternative, lets work on that. Take the initiative.

walking_dude
01-22-2008, 01:27 PM
Most immigrants will no doubt leave the state. With the reduction in skilled workforce, most companies will follow them and move out of the state. No new company will move in. This will also force a lot of citizens and PRs to move out too. Home prices will fall further, taxes will be lost.

If the purpose is to keep jobs in Michigan, it's a failed idea which will prove suicidal to the state.


There may be more to this than meets the eye. Michigan has been reeling under unemployment troubles for quite a while now. Getting foreigners to leave the state is one way of increasing jobs for citizens. I would not be surprised if some lawmaker there came up with this bright idea of achieving this via DLs.

EAD is not a status, not even a temporary one. The correct status is pending AOS.

maverick_joe
01-22-2008, 01:28 PM
Hey relax all legal immigrants, this was brought up simply to STOP illegal immigrants being issued a DL. What they say is any one who is not a resident of Michigan will not be issued a DL, and illegal immigrants would NOT be considered residents of Michigan, thats all what it is about. How on earth can they say no one having a work visa and legally in the US would not be allowed to drive?
just chill, they are still working on this.

JA1HIND
01-22-2008, 01:30 PM
Looks like whole bunch of IDI*&TS are all in one place for now/time being and running Michigan. I hope the other ID*&TS in other States DON'T get inspired with what they did with DL in MI and do any such dumb move to implement in other States..just can't imagine what type of pain legal immigrants must be going through in MI.....OH GOD PLEASE SAVE US FROM THESE morons running the show in MI.

This makes one thing clear to me is that not to look for any future contract jobs in MI.

To hell with MI & its DL requirements...:D

when
01-22-2008, 01:40 PM
Hey relax all legal immigrants, this was brought up simply to STOP illegal immigrants being issued a DL. What they say is any one who is not a resident of Michigan will not be issued a DL, and illegal immigrants would NOT be considered residents of Michigan, thats all what it is about. How on earth can they say no one having a work visa and legally in the US would not be allowed to drive?
just chill, they are still working on this.

LADY SAID "GET YOUR GREEN CARD TO GET YOUR LICENSE....DOESNT MATTER IF YOU ARE LEGALLY HERE OR WAITING FOR GREEN CARD".....:(:(:(:(

THEY NEED TO SEE ONE OF THESE TO ISSUE A D/L : http://michigan.gov/documents/sos/Applying_for_lic_or_ID_SOS_428_222146_7.pdf

paskal
01-22-2008, 01:42 PM
Hey relax all legal immigrants, this was brought up simply to STOP illegal immigrants being issued a DL. What they say is any one who is not a resident of Michigan will not be issued a DL, and illegal immigrants would NOT be considered residents of Michigan, thats all what it is about. How on earth can they say no one having a work visa and legally in the US would not be allowed to drive?
just chill, they are still working on this.

the opinion from the secy of state interpreting the AG's original opinion.
it says in crystal clear words that temporary legal workers cannot be issued DL's. she is suggesting a new law to redress this- but absent that, anyone without a GC is out of the driver's seat....

Wendyzhu77
01-22-2008, 01:43 PM
What's more, the current Michigan Governor is actually an immigrant! She come to US at 4 and became citizen at 21. Didn't she ever think what would happen to her career if this law was in place when she was young?
Anyway, this law is basically destroying the last viable pillar of MI ecconomy, which is university system. MI happeded to be all democratic governor and senators. Now we know what those democrates are.
Friends,

What was feared has come true. MI SOS (DMV) has passed the rule denying DLs to newer applicants on Temporary visas. Rules are yet to be made for renewals. But based on statements by SOS Terri Ann Lynd, I wouldn't be surprised if Temporary visa holders are denied DLs too ( since the rule will be based on interpretation of MI law by State Attorney General which says that only permanent residents can be given DL in Michigan)

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Applying_for_lic_or_ID_SOS_428_222146_7.pdf (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Applying_for_lic_or_ID_SOS_428_222146_7.pdf)


http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127--183894--,00.html


Ms. Lynd hopes temporary visa holders can drive using home country licences. She doesn't understand that Indians need IDLs too, which they can get only in their home country. She doesn't understand that many may not have DLs in their home countries (esp. Indians who came here as students) . I'm not surprised if mine has expired by now! For getting IDL we need to go back to our home country and get it from there. This is the gift by State of Michigan to immigrants on the occassion of day to remember the greatest humanitarian of our times - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

kicca
01-22-2008, 01:44 PM
that was the attorney general

jonty_11
01-22-2008, 01:45 PM
I guess we have another thing to work on as an IV community now...IV needs to prioritize and mobilize resources to alleviate this problem. And guys, this time please participate...or else work from home and risk loosing your job...OR travel by bus/train OR .......I am tired...already.

kicca
01-22-2008, 01:47 PM
that was the attorney general

No I guess. I briefly watched on Lou Dobbs. 17 states are petitioning against it (Real Id). He interviewed an official from MI and was proud that they are implementing this.
i mean... the Official was the Attorney General

when
01-22-2008, 01:48 PM
When

jonty_11
01-22-2008, 01:51 PM
LADY SAID "GET YOUR GREEN CARD TO GET YOUR LICENSE....DOESNT MATTER IF YOU ARE LEGALLY HERE OR WAITING FOR GREEN CARD".....:(:(:(:(

THEY NEED TO SEE ONE OF THESE TO ISSUE A D/L : http://michigan.gov/documents/sos/Applying_for_lic_or_ID_SOS_428_222146_7.pdf
I guess w/o a Green Card it wont work...Thank God I applied for Canadian PR....
Enough is enough already.

kumar1
01-22-2008, 01:56 PM
Very soon there is going to be a separate line at McDonalds for Non-Citizens. I am wondering how would you use "drive through" option? Is it going to be "walk through" by any chance? With every passing day, living in this country as a "legal" immigrant is getting tougher. We did not come to this country to fight DL rules and GC number recapture legislations. Someone already wrote here that it is a planned move to make life difficult for non-citizens....they will leave on their own. I agree with him 100%.

kaisersose
01-22-2008, 01:59 PM
I cannot speak for other countries...but in India we get 20 year licenses. That will run the show.

When I lived in Michigan, I was able to buy a car and insurance with just my Indian license.

when
01-22-2008, 02:00 PM
I guess w/o a Green Card it wont work...Thank God I applied for Canadian PR....
Enough is enough already.

Maybe Ontario's D/L would work in MI.............

This situation is very sad & depressing....and like many have said GC is becoming harder and harder and oppurtunties are becoming scarce

somegchuh
01-22-2008, 02:06 PM
I think you have finally begun to understand the system. I didn't understand the scam until I was well into it.
I have a few friends who have received their GC's in 2-3 years timeframe but for average indian GC wait is a straight 5 years. Here's the simple math. Every year they issue ~50K H1B visas to Indian nationals. Every year they issue ~10K GC's to Indians. So simple math it will take 5 years for everyone.
Take the dependents out of 10K and your wait is longer than 5 years.
I have spent over 5 years waiting for GC and I am still waiting for NC to clear before I can worry about retrogression! So, just take it by the day, enjoy your life (with the realization that you are getting screwed :-)

This whole MESS is like Schindlers List.. it’s a scam of monumental proportions..
Its like modern day slavery…earlier it was the Africans chained to do labour ..now its the third world country citizens who are facing the bonded labour trauma!!! (

The game plan is very smple: Get as many foreign (asian, third world country) students on F1—(desi, Chinese..)..entice them with an EAD for a year..then 6 years of H1..when are well settled .. lure them with the hope of a GC…and an endless wait!

If you have only 3500 GC per year..then da*& it give only 3500-F1 visas ..why do u need 70000 desis coming here to study! They want to keep their colleges going..so lure the cattle from the third world.

UR meaningless letters will not bring about a change of heart .. its a systematic dependency that is deliberately created..I am not shooting down these efforts but its totally vision less!! And not worth the effort!!!!

> Have some legal body file a law suit.. linking H1 and GC restrictions to “African Chain Gangs” of the past!.. being educated and being restrictive.. Ghanta American dream!!

I am sure no one here has spent a minute to put the phenomenal drain of foreign currency that countries like India and China are facing! Not every student gets funding…just add up the numbers of student loan debt that Indians have accumulated over the years!!!

walking_dude
01-22-2008, 02:30 PM
It looks like we may be able to drive on Indian DL after all!

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/reciprocity_chart_20508_7.pdf

"The licenses of residents of foreign countries that are considered valid are listed below. An international driving permit is not required. For licenses that are not in English, an interpreter may be required to determine the license’s validity.

Courts and law enforcement should not seize and destroy foreign drivers’ licenses pursuant to section 625g of the Michigan Vehicle Code "

( Indian DLs are included in the list 1949 Convention on Road Traffic )

But how do we get the auto insurance on Indian DL? And if we can how expensive it will be? Will it be affordable?

bigboy007
01-22-2008, 02:32 PM
forget about MI law i have no idea of how insurance companies would provide insurance and above all its used for any other transactions.

It looks like we may be able to drive on Indian DL after all!

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/reciprocity_chart_20508_7.pdf

"The licenses of residents of foreign countries that are considered valid are listed below. An international driving permit is not required. For licenses that are not in English, an interpreter may be required to determine the license’s validity.

Courts and law enforcement should not seize and destroy foreign drivers’ licenses pursuant to section 625g of the Michigan Vehicle Code "

( Indian DLs are included in the list 1949 Convention on Road Traffic )

But how do we get the auto insurance on Indian DL?

JazzByTheBay
01-22-2008, 02:45 PM
In the interest of its MI members, and those from other states who may be exposed to similar risk if such laws become more widely adopted by other states, IV should issue a strong statement against it articulating the issues legal immigrants will face.

jazz

Friends,

What was feared has come true. MI SOS (DMV) has passed the rule denying DLs to newer applicants on Temporary visas. Rules are yet to be made for renewals. But based on statements by SOS Terri Ann Lynd, I wouldn't be surprised if Temporary visa holders are denied DLs too ( since the rule will be based on interpretation of MI law by State Attorney General which says that only permanent residents can be given DL in Michigan)

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Applying_for_lic_or_ID_SOS_428_222146_7.pdf (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Applying_for_lic_or_ID_SOS_428_222146_7.pdf)


http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127--183894--,00.html


Ms. Lynd hopes temporary visa holders can drive using home country licences. She doesn't understand that Indians need IDLs too, which they can get only in their home country. She doesn't understand that many may not have DLs in their home countries (esp. Indians who came here as students) . I'm not surprised if mine has expired by now! For getting IDL we need to go back to our home country and get it from there. This is the gift by State of Michigan to immigrants on the occassion of day to remember the greatest humanitarian of our times - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

kaisersose
01-22-2008, 02:55 PM
It looks like we may be able to drive on Indian DL after all!

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/reciprocity_chart_20508_7.pdf

"The licenses of residents of foreign countries that are considered valid are listed below. An international driving permit is not required. For licenses that are not in English, an interpreter may be required to determine the license’s validity.

Courts and law enforcement should not seize and destroy foreign drivers’ licenses pursuant to section 625g of the Michigan Vehicle Code "

( Indian DLs are included in the list 1949 Convention on Road Traffic )

But how do we get the auto insurance on Indian DL? And if we can how expensive it will be? Will it be affordable?

This rule was always there in all states.

sam_hoosier
01-22-2008, 02:58 PM
Friends,

What was feared has come true. MI SOS (DMV) has passed the rule denying DLs to newer applicants on Temporary visas. Rules are yet to be made for renewals. But based on statements by SOS Terri Ann Lynd, I wouldn't be surprised if Temporary visa holders are denied DLs too ( since the rule will be based on interpretation of MI law by State Attorney General which says that only permanent residents can be given DL in Michigan)

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Applying_for_lic_or_ID_SOS_428_222146_7.pdf (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Applying_for_lic_or_ID_SOS_428_222146_7.pdf)


http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127--183894--,00.html


Ms. Lynd hopes temporary visa holders can drive using home country licences. She doesn't understand that Indians need IDLs too, which they can get only in their home country. She doesn't understand that many may not have DLs in their home countries (esp. Indians who came here as students) . I'm not surprised if mine has expired by now! For getting IDL we need to go back to our home country and get it from there. This is the gift by State of Michigan to immigrants on the occassion of day to remember the greatest humanitarian of our times - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Land already has been working to enhance driver's license security. In December 2007 she proposed the creation of an upgraded "standard" driver's license and an optional "enhanced" version that can be used in place of a passport at the Canadian border. The plan is being considered by the Legislature.

Her proposal would change the law to allow residents who are in the U.S. legally but temporarily to apply for an upgraded standard license.

"Michigan has many outstanding residents who contribute greatly to our economy and society even though they're here on a temporary basis," Land said. "Businesses rely on these talented individuals as well. Under the attorney general's opinion, those who are in the country legally but on temporary student or work visas are ineligible for a Michigan license, though most still can drive using the license of their home country. We need to reconsider that aspect of the law to avoid unintended consequences for individuals or job providers. I encourage citizens to voice their support for our proposal and contact their legislators."

And btw, her name is Terri Lynn Land ;)

when
01-22-2008, 03:08 PM
Land already has been working to enhance driver's license security. In December 2007 she proposed the creation of an upgraded "standard" driver's license and an optional "enhanced" version that can be used in place of a passport at the Canadian border. The plan is being considered by the Legislature.

Her proposal would change the law to allow residents who are in the U.S. legally but temporarily to apply for an upgraded standard license.

"Michigan has many outstanding residents who contribute greatly to our economy and society even though they're here on a temporary basis," Land said. "Businesses rely on these talented individuals as well. Under the attorney general's opinion, those who are in the country legally but on temporary student or work visas are ineligible for a Michigan license, though most still can drive using the license of their home country. We need to reconsider that aspect of the law to avoid unintended consequences for individuals or job providers. I encourage citizens to voice their support for our proposal and contact their legislators."

And btw, her name is Terri Lynn Land ;)


sam_hoosier - Legal Temp Immigrant will get D/L only when the State Senate passes the bill however as of today Legal Temp Immigrants can not get D/L in Michigan.....

lazycis
01-22-2008, 03:28 PM
MICHIGAN BASIC PROPERTY INSURANCE ASSOCIATION v. LILLIE ROSEMOND,
October 31, 2000, Michigan State Court of Appeals

"Our Supreme Court has determined that the term "reside" may be ambiguous in some contexts because it has both a legal or technical meaning and a general or popular meaning. Heniser v Frankenmuth Mut Ins, 449 Mich 155, 163; 534 NW2d 502 (1995). While the popular meaning includes actual physical presence, the legal term includes the intent to live at that location sometime in the future. Id. In Heniser, the plaintiff had sold his property prior to a fire which destroyed it but while the policy was still in effect. The Court found that, under either meaning, the plaintiff did not reside there because he admitted that he did not reside there at the time of the fire nor could he in the future. "

Section 51a of the Michigan Vehicle Code, MCL 257.51a, has a definition of "resident" that should be used for DL:

"Resident" means every person who resides in a settled or permanent home or domicile with the intention of remaining in this state. A person who obtains employment in this state is presumed to have the intention of remaining in this state. This definition shall apply to the provisions of this act only.


It seems that MI AG opinon can be easily overturned in MI state court.

chanduv23
01-22-2008, 03:29 PM
Does it talk about renewals also? if renewals is not an issue what about transfers from other states?

zCool
01-22-2008, 03:38 PM
I called all over state offices and talked to many nice and well-meaning folks.
I think initiative is to target illegal or criminal people but legal immigrants are caught in the crossfire.
Not many people in the Attorney General's office were aware of implications of these for Michigan economy or impact on business or hardship for legal immigrants or students.
I suggest folks call Attorney General's office and ask to talk to folks.
Also call Kelly Chesney 517-373-2520 who is media contact for SOS
Attorney General Michael Cox's office line is @ 517 373 1110 and
He probably did not realize all the impacts on various groups so call and register your concerns.
If he wants he can clarify the interpretation.
Even US Supreme Court has previously ruled upon this fact that for the purpose of Driving Permits , Legal Residents of all types can not be refused a permit.

sotaz
01-22-2008, 03:41 PM
I think this is the clearest indication of the future direction of US - get immigrants out of the country.

Malaysia is doing it too...

Becks
01-22-2008, 03:42 PM
Lets contact AILA for class action lawsuit :eek::eek::eek:

zCool
01-22-2008, 04:00 PM
LIKE I said!
CALL the numbers I gave before and register concern.
I don't think it was on purpose targetted towards LEAGL immigrants,
Once the interpretation is clearified SOS can issue licences again.

when
01-22-2008, 04:02 PM
When

santb1975
01-22-2008, 04:47 PM
Every one who has not worked on any of IV's Action Items need to start NOW. you can only help yourself

miguy
01-22-2008, 05:21 PM
This is the most outrageous thing I have ever seen. We got our drivers license 10 years ago when we came as students(temporary student visas). So, are they saying people with H1b visas cannot get drivers licenses?....This is a recipe for disaster and lots of accidents.

walking_dude
01-22-2008, 05:54 PM
zCool, can't post the details here,but, AGs office was contacted earlier by some Michigan members. They were assured by AGs office that legal temporary visa holders will not be impacted by the interpretation. And now we have this new rule.

Talking to AG - who is a Lou Dobbs buddy - will not change anything. This guy has an interesting history in interpreting the law wildly.

http://www.michiganliberal.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=7909

LIKE I said!
CALL the numbers I gave before and register concern.
I don't think it was on purpose targetted towards LEAGL immigrants,
Once the interpretation is clearified SOS can issue licences again.

walking_dude
01-22-2008, 06:07 PM
There's NO new rule!

After AG gave the interpretation, sometimes back, that ONLY permanent residents should be given DLs and before SOS issued the rule, some members wrote to AG explaining the impact it will have on legal immigrants. They received a response stating such fears are unfounded, from AGs office. We were lead to believe that it will impact only illegals.

After that some days pass, and yesterday SOS issues the rule which says legal immigrants won't be given DLs. As things stand today without overturning AGs interpretation, or state legislature passing new law, temporary visa holders in MI cannot get new DL.



What is the new rule? So, the AGs office assured that legal folks wont be impacted? Is that the new rule u r talking about? So, all our interpretations were wrong? Pls clarify.

alterego
01-22-2008, 07:08 PM
We must lobby the Governor on this issue. She has expressed interest in both keeping jobs in Michigan and in the Innovation agenda. Repeatedly speaking about attracting IT jobs, Biosciences jobs, and alternative fuel technology etc. None of this is helpful to do that.
She can push the legislation suggested by Terri Lynn Land at the very least.
We must convince her that, targeting legal immigrants this way WILL cause them to leave the State even if not the Country. This will hurt Michigan.
If this rule stands as is, I for one will be moving out within a year. My job prospects are good and frankly this would be too much to take. I suspect I will not be the only one doing so. Michigan's competitiveness will decline substantially.
Michigan in my view can ill afford this. Michigan lost 30K people net last year. Housing is in the slump of slumps, coming in at the top for foreclosures and with price declines averaging the coastal markets, bearing in mind Michigan did not have the run up in home prices in the first place. This would be another nail in the coffin for Michigan's economy.
I do feel she (the governor) is likely to take heed to our concerns. She has been rather quiet during this entire period on this issue.
What do you guys think is the best way to get her attention about this issue?

Becks
01-22-2008, 07:53 PM
Employers in MI will be affected by this along with us. So we(together) can contact employers / lawers and they must help us help themselves.

Hope they will clarify Legal non-permanent residents matter sooner.

.
What do you guys think is the best way to get her attention about this issue?

walking_dude
01-22-2008, 09:36 PM
We should write letters urging her to take actions to keep the jobs in Michigan . She should be convinced that the current DL rule will result in the state losing skilled professionals and jobs to other states.

We must lobby the Governor on this issue. She has expressed interest in both keeping jobs in Michigan and in the Innovation agenda. Repeatedly speaking about attracting IT jobs, Biosciences jobs, and alternative fuel technology etc. None of this is helpful to do that.
She can push the legislation suggested by Terri Lynn Land at the very least.
We must convince her that, targeting legal immigrants this way WILL cause them to leave the State even if not the Country. This will hurt Michigan.
If this rule stands as is, I for one will be moving out within a year. My job prospects are good and frankly this would be too much to take. I suspect I will not be the only one doing so. Michigan's competitiveness will decline substantially.
Michigan in my view can ill afford this. Michigan lost 30K people net last year. Housing is in the slump of slumps, coming in at the top for foreclosures and with price declines averaging the coastal markets, bearing in mind Michigan did not have the run up in home prices in the first place. This would be another nail in the coffin for Michigan's economy.
I do feel she (the governor) is likely to take heed to our concerns. She has been rather quiet during this entire period on this issue.
What do you guys think is the best way to get her attention about this issue?

sotaz
01-22-2008, 10:27 PM
In my view, sombody should forward the links to University of Michigan and Michigan State University's international students and scholars office. May be CMU, WMU, Wayne State as well, and their engineering programs and business schools.

They should know as they will be hit.

Wendyzhu77
01-22-2008, 10:37 PM
There is no need for this. Actually, universities in Michigan has already sent out emails to their students notifying this change.
In my view, sombody should forward the links to University of Michigan and Michigan State University's international students and scholars office. May be CMU, WMU, Wayne State as well, and their engineering programs and business schools.

They should know as they will be hit.

amsgc
01-22-2008, 10:58 PM
just curious - has the student community protested?

There is no need for this. Actually, universities in Michigan has already sent out emails to their students notifying this change.

Wendyzhu77
01-22-2008, 11:10 PM
Havn't heard of that yet. I think students are thinking more about moving to other universities than fighting the government. There is no reason why they absolutely need to stay in michigan.
just curious - has the student community protested?

amsgc
01-22-2008, 11:12 PM
Hmm... Moving to another state will not solve the problem, but it will certainly cause the universities to make some noise.

Havn't heard of that yet. I think students are thinking more about moving to other universities than fighting the government. There is no reason why they absolutely need to stay in michigan.

kalyan
01-22-2008, 11:28 PM
These so called Law Makers also should make a decision, that they would nottake any taxes such as Income Tax, employment taxes, Sales Taxes from the Non Permanent residents if they deprieve the Non Permanent residents of the Driving license.

They also should bring laws that Non PR should not be given access to university.

That way, the whole MI economy tumbles like a card tumble.

I believe their brain needs to be outsourced like the MI economy which is losing to outsourcing.

I believe u all should boycott in front of BMV and Governors Office one day taking leave from your work. At the same call Lou Dobbs ( A son of anti immigration) and other news agencies.

Also call the CLintion and Romney who won the caucus there on the day u protest.

Let these lawmakers then decide how much it costs to MI becoz of Legal Immigrants.


Challenge it in court of Law . Policy makers seem not have penny sense in MI

GCwaitforever
01-22-2008, 11:49 PM
ACLU is the best bet. Some Attorney Generals are twisted and their "interpretation" of the law might be opposite to the spirit of law.

lazycis
01-22-2008, 11:53 PM
I know that we do not want to be associated with undocumented immigrants, but this document has a lot of good points applicable to the situation in MI:
"Why Denying Driver’s Licenses to Undocumented Immigrants Harms Public Safety and Makes Our Communities Less Secure"
http://www.nilc.org/immspbs/DLs/FactSheet_DLs_2008-01-16.pdf

when
01-23-2008, 08:29 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

WaitingForMyGC
01-23-2008, 11:35 AM
Soon..they would say you cannot rent or buy a house here...just stay at hotel, use taxi and eat at restaurants.

amitga
01-23-2008, 11:43 AM
We should not take this non-sense any more and move to court and file a law suit ASAP. Whay are we always urging requesting and begging for everything.

raj3078
01-23-2008, 11:43 AM
I think someone needs to find out about MI tax law and how they interpret residents in that? If they interprete it in similar fashion then MI guys dont have to pay MI income tax. At least this can be challenged in court. If state does not wants to give you guys a basic service then it does not have right to tax you either. Same goes for Auto registration in MI

sidbee
01-23-2008, 11:45 AM
Soon..they would say you cannot rent or buy a house here...just stay at hotel, use taxi and eat at restaurants.

Thats what the meaning of temporary employment is ....

First the desi consultants exploited the h1b, now the government wants to do the same...

Soon they would start charging double income tax, social security and other taxes from h1b.

kumar1
01-23-2008, 11:51 AM
A lot of times I think it is easier to live like and illegal immigrant than a legal one. I somehow knew a cab driver in NYC. He was making good money by driving cab, in last six years he did not pay a dime as tax. He did not buy any health insurance, always relied on emergency room services, never paid vehicle insurance...after 6 years he racked up almost 1/4 million dollars in savings, got a US citizen girl, got married and boom...he got GC in less than 4 months. When I think about him, I can not stop feeling like a stupid law-abiding jack-ass person.

Go MI go....you are going 100 miles/hr stright towards hell.

kumar1
01-23-2008, 11:52 AM
Super Point! I totally agree!

I think someone needs to find out about MI tax law and how they interpret residents in that? If they interprete it in similar fashion then MI guys dont have to pay MI income tax. At least this can be challenged in court. If state does not wants to give you guys a basic service then it does not have right to tax you either. Same goes for Auto registration in MI

raj3078
01-23-2008, 01:26 PM
Super Point! I totally agree!

Come to think....What needs to be challenged in the court is not this but the income tax collection by MI...In that one needs to bring this interpretation of AG and show the court that if AG does not consider us residents then he can not collect taxes from us either. In one shot AG will change his interpretation which can then be applied to Automotive license issue. I think its about time IV take this fight to courts.... Peaceful demonstrations have its place and I believe in Gandhigiri too, but until and unless we strike where it hurt the most (money) nobody is going to give a rat's a** about us. As someone mentioned that host of other states are moving to implement similar restrictions, time to stop this is now....If we loose this battle then it will create echo all over the country

lazycis
01-23-2008, 01:42 PM
Come to think....What needs to be challenged in the court is not this but the income tax collection by MI...In that one needs to bring this interpretation of AG and show the court that if AG does not consider us residents then he can not collect taxes from us either. In one shot AG will change his interpretation which can then be applied to Automotive license issue. I think its about time IV take this fight to courts.... Peaceful demonstrations have its place and I believe in Gandhigiri too, but until and unless we strike where it hurt the most (money) nobody is going to give a rat's a** about us. As someone mentioned that host of other states are moving to implement similar restrictions, time to stop this is now....If we loose this battle then it will create echo all over the country

You are on the money :) I agree and I'd say the chances to win are great. A lawsuit will cost a fraction of lobbying and will be a great ad for IV.

kalyan
01-23-2008, 01:53 PM
Hi Guys,

I hope atleast there are 100K working people on H1 in MI. If you form a group and pay 5$ from each, you can hire an attorney and challenge the MI law about DL and income tax.

The lawmakers need to go to college once again.


Knowledge is power and you guys need to show the power of Legal Immigration.

Well Said, you guys need not pay Income Tax in MI as you are not considered residents.

A sooner legal lawsuit will help you. Also invite the dummer Lou Doubs to show our power and privelege and he can stop yelling about Legal Immigration.

I will stand by to help you though i don't live in MI.

h1b_forever
01-23-2008, 02:05 PM
I think we should start to write to Secretary of State and let here know what this means to thousands of legal immigrants from whom them are collecting millions of dollars in taxes.

I don't think any body there understands what they are doing, else the state would not be in this condition

here is the email address
secretary@michigan.gov

kumar1
01-23-2008, 02:06 PM
I do not live in MI but I would certainly contribute against this non-sense. If I do not, then tomorrow my stupid state is going to adopt it too.

chanduv23
01-23-2008, 02:10 PM
Hi Guys,

I hope atleast there are 100K working people on H1 in MI. If you form a group and pay 5$ from each, you can hire an attorney and challenge the MI law about DL and income tax.

The lawmakers need to go to college once again.


Knowledge is power and you guys need to show the power of Legal Immigration.

Well Said, you guys need not pay Income Tax in MI as you are not considered residents.

A sooner legal lawsuit will help you. Also invite the dummer Lou Doubs to show our power and privelege and he can stop yelling about Legal Immigration.

I will stand by to help you though i don't live in MI.

The issue is that most highly skilled people are scared and lack sense of unity and standing up for a cause, I am sure everyone in Michigan will now be considering moving out of Michigan but will not even sign a petition to do something about themselves.

In general the educated highly skilled community lack courage and confidence to stand up.

A good example is the admin fix campaign - so much of motivation and cajoling is required to ask the community to print a piece of document and post it - this shows how unmotivated people are.

chanduv23
01-23-2008, 02:12 PM
I think we should start to write to Secretary of State and let here know what this means to thousands of legal immigrants from whom them are collecting millions of dollars in taxes.

I don't think any body there understands what they are doing, else the state would not be in this condition

here is the email address
secretary@michigan.gov

They are well aware. Please understand that the country is not like before. Unless we all stand up for ourselves, things will keep happening against us.

walking_dude
01-23-2008, 02:13 PM
I have added a Poll to determine the future course of actions for MI members. I see a lot of support for lawsuit here. Lawsuits are expensive and don't come cheap.

If you are voting for Lawsuit, remember you are commiting to share the expenses. It's impossible for just 5-10 of us active members to finance it, we can do it if everyone comes forward with commitments to donate liberally. If there's commitment that makes a lawsuit option viable IV can then be talked into considering it as an action plan. Without necessary commitment from affected parties lawsuit idea cannot be pursued realistically.

sidbee
01-23-2008, 02:14 PM
Come to think....What needs to be challenged in the court is not this but the income tax collection by MI...In that one needs to bring this interpretation of AG and show the court that if AG does not consider us residents then he can not collect taxes from us either. In one shot AG will change his interpretation which can then be applied to Automotive license issue. I think its about time IV take this fight to courts.... Peaceful demonstrations have its place and I believe in Gandhigiri too, but until and unless we strike where it hurt the most (money) nobody is going to give a rat's a** about us. As someone mentioned that host of other states are moving to implement similar restrictions, time to stop this is now....If we loose this battle then it will create echo all over the country



I agree with raj , we should go to court , over the adminstrative changes too.
Being frank , i didnt contribute as yet.But i would gladly do, if IV goes to court and file a class action suite.

h1b_forever
01-23-2008, 02:33 PM
The Honorable Terri Lynn Land,
I am shocked and very disturbed by the news I read about the new requirement for obtaining driving license in the state of Michigan which allows only Citizens and Permanent residents to obtain licenses.
I am a legal immigrant working in US since 1998. I have been living in Michigan since 2003 and own a home in the state. I am on a temporary h1b visa working towards by permanent residency. I have been in the process since 2002 with no end in sight due to tremendous backlog in this process. While we are waiting for our residency application to get processed, we are caught in a situation where we cannot claim to be permanent residents. We do not carry driver license from our home country anymore as I have been living in this country and driving with US license for 10 years.
I do not know what you expect us to do in this condition. This is the first state in the whole country with such a requirement. Every state I have lived in gives driver licenses to legal residents for the validity of their Visas.
I hope you understand the problems legal immigrants will face due to this new requirement and make necessary changes to allow legal residents to obtain licenses to work and live in Michigan.

Thanks & Regards

EndlessWait
01-23-2008, 02:38 PM
I believe in lawsuits. This country does also.. Lets face it nothing actually gets done unless there is fear of law.

I believe in equal rights (excluding voting rights, as we are legals here). We came from the front door. Stood in line at visa embassies, paid visa fees etc etc. We did not jump the border for those folks who don't understand the difference between legal Vs Illegals. We pay federal, state and social security taxes just as US citizens do..So while giving licenses, there should be nothing on it which discriminates us from the rest. They dont discriminate when they take our taxes. Blood and Money have the same color.

Lets talk in the same language as these ppl who have no respect for legal high skilled immigrants.

Lets roll!

Actually this should be v much be a class action lawsuit!

raj3078
01-23-2008, 02:42 PM
I believe in lawsuits. This country does also.. Lets face it nothing actually gets done unless there is fear of law.

I believe in equal rights (excluding voting rights, as we are legals here). We came from the front door. Stood in line at visa embassies, paid visa fees etc etc. We did not cross the border. We pay federal, state and social security taxes as US citizens..So while giving licenses, there should be nothing on it which discriminates us from the rest. They dont discriminate when they take our taxes. Blood and Money have the same color.

Lets talk in the same language as these ppl who have no respect for legal high skilled immigrants.

Lets roll!

Well said...My friend brett who is citizen says....America is country in which Lawyers are everywhere....They are the lawmakers and they are the ones who challenge those laws and they are the ones who gets most benefitted....;) Just look at current presidential nominees in DEMs

sparky_jones
01-23-2008, 02:53 PM
I am a MA resident, but I have written to the MI secretary of state voicing my protest against the decision. I have also written to Ruben Navarrette (ruben.navarrette@uniontrib.com), a promiment immigrants-rights advocate and journalist.

EndlessWait
01-23-2008, 02:54 PM
The Honorable Terri Lynn Land,
I am shocked and very disturbed by the news I read about the new requirement for obtaining driving license in the state of Michigan which allows only Citizens and Permanent residents to obtain licenses.
I am a legal immigrant working in US since 1998. I have been living in Michigan since 2003 and own a home in the state. I am on a temporary h1b visa working towards by permanent residency. I have been in the process since 2002 with no end in sight due to tremendous backlog in this process. While we are waiting for our residency application to get processed, we are caught in a situation where we cannot claim to be permanent residents. We do not carry driver license from our home country anymore as I have been living in this country and driving with US license for 10 years.
I do not know what you expect us to do in this condition. This is the first state in the whole country with such a requirement. Every state I have lived in gives driver licenses to legal residents for the validity of their Visas.
I hope you understand the problems legal immigrants will face due to this new requirement and make necessary changes to allow legal residents to obtain licenses to work and live in Michigan.

Thanks & Regards

Looking forward to see if there was any response. I fear this state will set a bad precedence and other states will make life a living hell for legals. How screwed up system is this

h1b_forever
01-23-2008, 04:09 PM
Everyone please contact Secretary of state

Junky
01-23-2008, 04:33 PM
I just do not understand what an idiotic decision :confused: they have made “Driving License only for citizens/GC holders”.
Morons put the final nail in the coffin of already derailed MI economy :eek:.
It is understandable not to give license to the people who broke the law (illegal immigrants) but now the folks who played by rules are the one to suffer :mad:.

when
01-23-2008, 05:01 PM
I heard on 101.9FM NPR-Detroit that MI legislature is considering D/L for Legal Temps until the expiration of their visas:confused::(

sunny1000
01-23-2008, 05:26 PM
A Court challenge of the AG's opinion is warranted. AILF should spearhead this ASAP.

alterego
01-23-2008, 05:41 PM
The Honorable Terri Lynn Land,
I am shocked and very disturbed by the news I read about the new requirement for obtaining driving license in the state of Michigan which allows only Citizens and Permanent residents to obtain licenses.
I am a legal immigrant working in US since 1998. I have been living in Michigan since 2003 and own a home in the state. I am on a temporary h1b visa working towards by permanent residency. I have been in the process since 2002 with no end in sight due to tremendous backlog in this process. While we are waiting for our residency application to get processed, we are caught in a situation where we cannot claim to be permanent residents. We do not carry driver license from our home country anymore as I have been living in this country and driving with US license for 10 years.
I do not know what you expect us to do in this condition. This is the first state in the whole country with such a requirement. Every state I have lived in gives driver licenses to legal residents for the validity of their Visas.
I hope you understand the problems legal immigrants will face due to this new requirement and make necessary changes to allow legal residents to obtain licenses to work and live in Michigan.

Thanks & Regards

I suggest you do not give them any bright ideas about duration of visa etc. Legal is legal. Tennessee recently put in place a provision that would only give licenses to people with visas for more than 1 year. After much pressure the governor has apparently rescinded that and now you can get it with less than a year left. Given the current restrictionist mood, I think we should approach the governors office. Secretary Terri Lynn Land has included a proposal for an enhanced standard license for those like us, but this has to move through the state legislature. I hope Governor Granholm, either sheperds it through or does something by executive order.

jasmin45
01-23-2008, 05:45 PM
There's nothing new in this but just FYI.

I Just spoke to MI AILA chapter and they said that the Secretary of State will not take away licenses from those already holding MI licenses. The SOS interpretation for renewals will come out shortly however, from what I have heard, it does not look good.

I highly urge everyone to contact all of these people and explain what this interpretation is going to do to the MI economy and to your clients and their families.

chantu
01-23-2008, 07:24 PM
This law is already in place in PA.

But they gave DL based on 1 year EAD too. I showed my EAD, and they renewed my DL for one year...no questions asked.

maacho
01-23-2008, 09:16 PM
is this going to happen in california too? i hope not, coz i just got a 2 month temp license

va117
01-23-2008, 09:43 PM
Soon..they would say you cannot rent or buy a house here...just stay at hotel, use taxi and eat at restaurants.

They already doing this in Michigan!

Then we moved to Michigan in 2004 and needed to rent an appartment, we had to present our immigration status papers to renting office!

amsgc
01-23-2008, 09:48 PM
MI is already in the dumps with the foreclosures (http://money.cnn.com/video/#/video/news/2008/01/14/news.willis.foreclosures.cnnmoney). Driving away hard working law abiding legal temporary workers who have regular, and perhaps above average, incomes is a great strategy to alleviate this problem.:rolleyes:

Go figure!

maacho
01-23-2008, 09:54 PM
i guess everyone is SCREWED, its a sign of times to come, guess its time to pack up n goto greener pastures ;)

amsgc
01-23-2008, 10:03 PM
Don't know about you man, but I am not going anywhere. I am going to fight the injustice.

Have you sent the letters (http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16506) out yet?

i guess everyone is SCREWED, its a sign of times to come, guess its time to pack up n goto greener pastures ;)

schhettr
01-24-2008, 10:28 AM
This is the reply I received when I wrote to the MI state email address concerning the renewal of my MI DL:

Thank you for using the Department of State's web site.

You will be able to renew your driver license by providing your social security number.

If you do not have a social security number, you would need to provide a letter of ineligibility from the Social Security Administration. The letter must be presented within 30 days of issuance, to the Secretary of State Branch Office.

If you have other questions, feel free to contact us at 888 SOSMICH (888-767-6424).

Sincerely,

Ruth Haigh, Technician
Department of State Information Center


[THREAD ID:1-7VIIL]



-----Original Message-----

From: SOSWebMaster@michigan.gov
Sent: 1/23/2008 01:04:20 PM
To: "SOS, DSIC" <dsic@michigan.gov>

Requirements for MI driver licence

Currently I have a Michigan DL. My license expires in a year. I am here on a working H1Bvisa and have a pending Green card application with approved work permit.

So when my time for renewal comes, will my DL be renewed or will I be left without a MI DL? What are the steps I need to take to ensure I have a DL come next year?

Appreciateyour feedback.

Regards,

h1b_forever
01-24-2008, 10:45 AM
This is currently true for renewals, but they are supposed to announce an update to that also, which might change this.

This is why we all need to contact everyone possible and "Educate" them on what they are doing.


This is the reply I received when I wrote to the MI state email address concerning the renewal of my MI DL:

Thank you for using the Department of State's web site.

You will be able to renew your driver license by providing your social security number.

If you do not have a social security number, you would need to provide a letter of ineligibility from the Social Security Administration. The letter must be presented within 30 days of issuance, to the Secretary of State Branch Office.

If you have other questions, feel free to contact us at 888 SOSMICH (888-767-6424).

Sincerely,

Ruth Haigh, Technician
Department of State Information Center


[THREAD ID:1-7VIIL]

leoindiano
01-24-2008, 12:16 PM
All i can say is this is bad for Michigan.

What a stupid/sluggish thinking. Their auto industry is already in great trouble. Now, they dont want anybody on temp visa to buy a car. Are they thinking backwards? Even 5 years kid can tell this is bad for their economy.

1) F1's will not be interested to go there. Coz they cannot drive to earn their bread. University's will be effecyed badly.
2) H1's will not take a job where they cannot drive.

lazycis
01-24-2008, 12:22 PM
I'd say those who live in MI should stop paying Motor vehicle taxes and sales taxes as non-residents.

Wendyzhu77
01-24-2008, 04:36 PM
and universities teachers will also leave, because lots of them are also on H1 visa. UoM and MSU can kiss byebye to their rankings now.
All i can say is this is bad for Michigan.

What a stupid/sluggish thinking. Their auto industry is already in great trouble. Now, they dont want anybody on temp visa to buy a car. Are they thinking backwards? Even 5 years kid can tell this is bad for their economy.

1) F1's will not be interested to go there. Coz they cannot drive to earn their bread. University's will be effecyed badly.
2) H1's will not take a job where they cannot drive.

lazycis
01-24-2008, 04:43 PM
We need to file a lawsuit ASAP and request judge to issue TRO (temporary restraining order) in order to keep existing DL rules intact while lawsuit is pending.

zCool
01-24-2008, 05:16 PM
One of my friends went to DMV and made a lot of noise,
They have asked him to go personally with all the documents and they are going to try out exceptions process.
Meanwhile we have AG's office and SOS office clueless about folks whose lives they are playing with.
None of them even had a clue how many number of such people will be impacted , those who are legal, work full-time, permenant jobs with US companies but don't have Green card in hand yet!

niklshah
01-24-2008, 05:44 PM
i called the office and asked about license renewal which is coming up next month, the lady over there told me that if you have valid michigan drivers license and social security number, we will renew it now but there is no certainity for renewal afterwards. She told me that temporary permit will not do, you need to have valid michigan license.

mallu
01-24-2008, 05:55 PM
All i can say is this is bad for Michigan.

What a stupid/sluggish thinking. Their auto industry is already in great trouble. Now, they dont want anybody on temp visa to buy a car. Are they thinking backwards? Even 5 years kid can tell this is bad for their economy.

1) F1's will not be interested to go there. Coz they cannot drive to earn their bread. University's will be effecyed badly.
2) H1's will not take a job where they cannot drive.

It could be a winner for Michigan average Joe.
If there is a shortage of H1s there, our 'Joe six pack' will get the job and he will stop going to flip burgers. And the universities will be filled with locals and Michigan will become self sufficient.

bestia
01-24-2008, 07:07 PM
It could be a winner for Michigan average Joe.
If there is a shortage of H1s there, our 'Joe six pack' will get the job and he will stop going to flip burgers. And the universities will be filled with locals and Michigan will become self sufficient.

I don't think so. High-tech immigrants will start leaving Michigan, no new ones will be coming. Companies will start opening offices in other states to keep high-tech people and closing down local offices laying off the remaining local Joes. Less people will be paying state taxes and state will face more problems. Universities will lose a lot of money, because international students pay 3-4 times more than locals. Today locals have no problems going to their universities. If they don't go today, what will make them go tomorrow? Michigan will be self sufficient like Sahara Desert.

My personal advise would using AC21 and leaving Michigan. Come to California, at least we don't have these problems (yet).

grupak
01-24-2008, 07:11 PM
...

My personal advise would using AC21 and leaving Michigan. Come to California, at least we don't have these problems (yet).

Wonder if things have gotten better or worse in California. I remember H4 being denied DL or even a state ID years back.

mallu
01-24-2008, 07:14 PM
Wonder if things have gotten better or worse in California. I remember H4 being denied DL or even a state ID years back.

H4 can get DL. My spouse got DL ( we had to take a letter from Social Security Office , stating 'Not Eligible for SSN' ).

grupak
01-24-2008, 07:20 PM
H4 can get DL. My spouse got DL ( we had to take a letter from Social Security Office , stating 'Not Eligible for SSN' ).

Good to know that.

Maybe we were unlucky, the SSN letter didn't help us some 5-6 years back. DMV gave us a hard time instead.

gc_check
01-24-2008, 07:26 PM
i called the office and asked about license renewal which is coming up next month, the lady over there told me that if you have valid michigan drivers license and social security number, we will renew it now but there is no certainity for renewal afterwards. She told me that temporary permit will not do, you need to have valid michigan license.

Hello, In some states, you can renew DL upto 180 days prior to the expiration and if you have an option to get it done now without any issue, then take care of it ASAP. I myself did renew my DL last time, well in advance.

bestia
01-24-2008, 07:57 PM
Wonder if things have gotten better or worse in California. I remember H4 being denied DL or even a state ID years back.

Did H4 have SSN? I never heard any problem from anybody who I know with state id. People were getting it without SSN and even with expired I-94s. I helped a few people to get DLs (drove them and translated), mainly DMV was asking for SSN. If you don't have SSN, then unexpired I-94. I renewed mine few years ago and honestly I don't even remember talking/mentioning about my immigration status.

walking_dude
01-25-2008, 10:56 AM
There is an IV update on the issue.

http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16834

We are working on this. Details cannot be provided in the public forum. Interested Michigan members can join the state chapter for faster updates.

Details on joining the chapter is provided in my signature below.

Dhundhun
01-25-2008, 07:35 PM
Good to know that.
Maybe we were unlucky, the SSN letter didn't help us some 5-6 years back. DMV gave us a hard time instead.
That why, one need to go from one desk to other desk, one office to other office. Some of the staffs are not qualified. It is just like we have been coming across even Lawyers not having enough information.
I have 4-5 such instances, few to list:
#1. Related to DL itself
#2. Resident fee for H4
#3. Extent H4 is valid with Univ./Lawyer
etc.

lazycis
01-25-2008, 07:37 PM
Here is a good read about the issue
http://bibdaily.com/pdfs/AILA%20Mich%20DL%201-25-08.pdf

amitga
01-25-2008, 08:09 PM
I just got a reply from SOS office :



Thank you for using the Department of State's web site and for taking
the time to express your concerns about Michigan’s new driver license
requirements, in which first time applicants for a driver license or ID
card must prove they have established permanent legal presence in the
United States. These new requirements align Michigan’s procedure
with those of most other states.

Please be aware that Secretary Land has also been working to enhance
driver license security by proposing the creation of an upgraded
“standard” driver license. This license will tie a legal, temporary
resident’s driver license expiration date to their U.S. Entry Visa
expiration date. This will allow students and employees legally, but
temporarily, in the U.S. to obtain a driver license. This is the type of driver
license that you are able to obtain by not being a permanent resident,
but a legal immigrant. Updated procedures for renewing a current
driver license will be released soon.

In an additional concept, Secretary Land is working on an optional
“enhanced” version which Michigan residents, who are also U.S.
citizens, may use in place of a passport at the Canadian border. Her proposals
for both the standard and enhanced driver licenses are being
considered by the Legislature.

Again, thank you for making us aware of your concerns. For more
information on Secretary Land’s initiative, please visit
www.Michigan.gov/sos. It is titled “The Drive for a Safer Michigan” and is found
under “News and Headlines.”

If you have other questions, feel free to contact us at 888 SOSMICH
(888-767-6424).

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXX, Specialist
Department of State Information Center

mbartosik
01-26-2008, 02:15 AM
I need a fact check:

"Some states have enacted strict license requirement that have started to cause hardship to legally present aliens. I believe that Tennessee has since changed its requirements due to the hardship caused."

Reply to mark at immigrationvoice.org

rakesh_uvce
01-28-2008, 07:01 PM
Update Regarding Michigan Driver’s License

Dear International Students,

We want to update you on the progress of last week’s ruling on Michigan Driver’s licenses for international students and scholars. WSU’s administration is working hard along with AILA, (American Immigration Lawyer’s Association), and other Michigan schools and businesses. As a result of this collective effort, an amended bill to allow foreign nationals to continue to apply for driver’s licenses will be discussed at a hearing in Lansing on January 31. It looks positive that this bill will be passed an implemented within 30 days. Below are some important points you should know:

· Currently, you are able to renew your driver’s license if you

have a social security number;

· Generally, you can drive on a driver’s license from your native country; (just make sure you carry your passport with you.)

We will keep our website home page updated with the latest information

www.oiss.wayne.edu

Please do not hesitate to contact us should you have additional questions or concerns.

Sincerely,

Linda Seatts, M.A.,

Director

Wayne State University

Office of International Students and Scholars

needhelp!
01-31-2008, 02:31 PM
Going on right now.

Direct link to the video steam - mms://streamer.senate.michigan.gov/encoderb-av

needhelp!
01-31-2008, 03:40 PM
IV testimony in progress right now..

whitecollarslave
01-31-2008, 03:59 PM
Going on right now.

Direct link to the video steam - mms://streamer.senate.michigan.gov/encoderb-av

Looks like the voting is done. Anybody know what transpired out of this?

sanju
01-31-2008, 04:09 PM
Looks like the voting is done. Anybody know what transpired out of this?


There was no voting.

Apparently, IV members testified in front of MI Senate presenting a case for changing the MI law allowing driver's licenses to high-skilled immigrants. Someone is standing up for all of us, I don't know the name of the IV member who testified in MI today. Does anybody know the details?

GCwaitforever
01-31-2008, 04:19 PM
Good job guys. I posted something in support of ACLU petition. Moderators deleted it. Sometimes, you ought to try from different angles. You can not go in one path alone to guarantee success. ACLU was just another stone to get the job done.

mbartosik
01-31-2008, 04:31 PM
WalkingDude testified he is the Michigan chapter leader
I did the ground work, finding out what's going on, who's who, and position paper.

I'm catching up on missed work now, so will wait for WalkingDude to write up results. The position papers and written testimony will be up on MI senate web site today or by end of tomorrow I expect.

ACLU -- sorry admin was right to delete, it would not have helped us.
Today we had a narrow thread to weave.

santb1975
01-31-2008, 04:36 PM
Thanks for all your hard work

WalkingDude testified he is the Michigan chapter leader
I did the ground work, finding out what's going on, who's who, and position paper.

I'm catching up on missed work now, so will wait for WalkingDude to write up results. The position papers and written testimony will be up on MI senate web site today or by end of tomorrow I expect.

ACLU -- sorry admin was right to delete, it would not have helped us.
Today we had a narrow thread to weave.

NKR
01-31-2008, 04:38 PM
Mark and WD,

Time and again you guys have devoted your time and energy for a just cause. Thank you guys.

Leo07
01-31-2008, 04:48 PM
I actually can't believe...people voted for "Do nothing and suffer". I hope they are kidding.

needhelp!
01-31-2008, 05:06 PM
lAcgeyjZ3qY

amitga
01-31-2008, 05:08 PM
http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/business-14/1201796643204690.xml&storylist=michigannews


Governor calls for quick action to address driver's licenses
1/31/2008, 11:15 a.m. ET
By TIM MARTIN
The Associated Press


LANSING, Mich. (AP) — Gov. Jennifer Granholm has added her voice to those urging lawmakers to begin fixing what some consider unintended consequences of Michigan's reinterpreted driver's license laws.

People who are here legally but not permanent residents — including employees from other countries temporarily working for Michigan companies — haven't been able to get new state driver's licenses since last week.

That's due to rules implemented by Secretary of State Terri Lynn Land requiring more documentation to get driver's licenses for first-time applicants. Her decision was based on a recent opinion from Attorney General Mike Cox, which said only permanent Michigan residents are eligible for driver's licenses.

"The Michigan Economic Development Corporation reports that this issue already is detrimentally impacting our state's ability to attract and retain foreign investment and skilled workers," Granholm wrote in a letter sent Wednesday to Senate Majority Leader Mike Bishop and House Speaker Andy Dillon.

"There are currently nearly 400,000 foreign businesspeople, students and their families in Michigan on visas, many of them employed in the automotive industry and other important sectors. ... While we should prevent persons in our country illegally from obtaining a driver's license, it is important that the law be changed quickly to address this problem."

The legislation that would allow temporary, legal residents to get licenses is part of Land's plan to create a new standard driver's license and state ID card. Only those who are Michigan residents and legally in the U.S. could get the standard license under the plan.

The Senate Transportation Committee is expected to pass the package Thursday, sending it to the Senate floor. Senate Democrats have urged quick action, calling it an embarrassment that some legal residents can't get a license.

Cox was asked to rule on whether illegal immigrants should be able to get driver's licenses. Until last week, Michigan was one of the few states where illegals could legally get behind the wheel.

Cox's opinion ended that practice, saying Michigan law prohibits the secretary of state from issuing a driver's license to a nonresident. The opinion said the Legislature stated a clear intent that a resident for purposes of Michigan's vehicle code must be permanent and not temporary or transient.

His decision reversed an early opinion by former Democratic Attorney General Frank Kelley made in 1995. Attorney general opinions are legally binding on state agencies and officers unless reversed by the courts or state law is changed.

Both Land and Cox are Republicans. Land interpreted the Cox opinion to mean immigrants who are here legally — but aren't permanent residents — can't get licenses. She has proposed legislation that would change that, allowing legal immigrants who are temporarily in the state to get licenses.

Many of the people affected by the current policy could at least temporarily continue to drive in Michigan with valid licenses from their home countries. But some business groups and schools say the Legislature should quickly change and clarify state law so legal immigrants can get state-issued licenses.

"Those that are lawfully here ... we believe they have become unintended victims of this interpretation," said Jared Rodriguez of the Grand Rapids Area Chamber of Commerce.

Grand Valley State University wants the law changed because of fears it would hurt its ability to recruit topflight international faculty and students, Rodriguez said. A few Grand Rapids-area companies with international work forces, including Alticor, also are worried about the possible consequences of denying driving privileges to people legally in the state.

"People here legally will be able to get driver's licenses," said Sen. Jud Gilbert, a Republican from Algonac and chairman of the committee.

mbartosik
01-31-2008, 05:25 PM
I noticed that Sen Gilbert said there were many "cards" these were cards from people asking to give oral testimony, and they were out of time for hearing everyone.

So why did IV get to testify, with two people....?

Most likely because we had been working on this since at least 23rd, and were the only ones to provide written testimony to the committee clerk before the meeting (as of end of business yesterday).

This is still an up hill battle.
I'm looking forward to speaking with WalkingDude.

sanju
01-31-2008, 05:37 PM
I actually can't believe...people voted for "Do nothing and suffer". I hope they are kidding.

They are not kidding, they actually love to see us all suffer. They are anti-immigrants.

sanju
01-31-2008, 05:39 PM
I noticed that Sen Gilbert said there were many "cards" these were cards from people asking to give oral testimony, and they were out of time for hearing everyone.

So why did IV get to testify, with two people....?

Most likely because we had been working on this since at least 23rd, and were the only ones to provide written testimony to the committee clerk before the meeting (as of end of business yesterday).

This is still an up hill battle.
I'm looking forward to speaking with WalkingDude.


Great work mbartosik and WalkingDude. You guys are simply AWESOME!!!!

walking_dude
01-31-2008, 06:58 PM
Guys, I'm back after spending 7 hours to drive to Lansing ( 1.5 hours each way) and nearly three hours of MI Senate Transport commitee hearing.

It was an awesome experience representing IV and the employment-based immigrant community. It was a double whammy that my friend also got a chance to testify. The room was crowded. Many folks were standing. A number of them didn't get a chance to testify. Since we were early movers and thanks to IV leadership support we did.

Transport commitee has passed the bill. It will go to MI senate next for voting. MI House of Representatives is also coming up with their own version of the bill. That's all that can be said now. We will continue to track and monitor the situation.

I request everyone of you to get involved. If we sit in closets and hide behind anonymity, no one will hear our voice. I'm glad, I raised our voice in front of the lawmakers today. I wasn't speaking for myself, I was doing it on behalf of our community. We are all legal law-abiding people here, there is nothing we need to be afraid of. We live in a democracy where every person is given an opportunity to speak. I utlilized mine today and request every one to do the same.

needhelp!
01-31-2008, 08:23 PM
Thanks Vivek & Srini for doing this for all of us. And ofcourse Mark for doing the background work.

walking_dude
01-31-2008, 08:45 PM
Thanks needhelp for recording the whole proceedings. If you hadn't done the recording against all odds, it would've been impossible to convince skeptics of the work we are doing for our community. You deserve special thanks for that.

Also Mark did a great job of doing the background work, following up with the forces that be, arranging the whole thing, work on advisory paper and so on.
Mark, I hearily thank you for doing so much for our community in Michigan though you are from Newyork and unimpacted by the bill.

It feels great to be a part of a team of dedicated volunteers like needhelp and Mark.

Thanks Vivek & Srini for doing this for all of us. And ofcourse Mark for doing the background work.

bestin
01-31-2008, 09:17 PM
Great Great Job Vivek and Srini.We are all proud of you guys.Mark,u deserve a special thanks on behalf of MI legal immigrants.

All Mi chapter members,
It is time that we all try to support the cause.I know Vivek has atleast had two days of his personal leave for us.Same with Srini.These guys have motivated us so much that we all need to acknowledge.Rather than asking what has IV done to resolve this lets join these great personalities in our region who spend their working hours for doing their work and personal hours for IV.-for us - Legal Immigrants.

Kudos to you guys.We are proud to have you guys in MI

santb1975
01-31-2008, 09:24 PM
Kudos to you all


Thanks needhelp for recording the whole proceedings. If you hadn't done the recording against all odds, it would've been impossible to convince skeptics of the work we are doing for our community. You deserve special thanks for that.

Also Mark did a great job of doing the background work, following up with the forces that be, arranging the whole thing, work on advisory paper and so on.
Mark, I hearily thank you for doing so much for our community in Michigan though you are from Newyork and unimpacted by the bill.

It feels great to be a part of a team of dedicated volunteers like needhelp and Mark.

vamsi_poondla
01-31-2008, 09:45 PM
Awesome Job Guys. IV stands for Highly Skilled Legal Immigrants interests...

poreddyp
02-01-2008, 03:11 PM
Kudos to Vivek and Srini. Here is the youtube link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAcgeyjZ3qY

rahulpaper
02-01-2008, 03:33 PM
Very good job by Vivek, Srini and Mark. Keep it up!!!

AAB
02-04-2008, 10:53 PM
This pisses me off to no end. There is just no way that the law makers did not see the effect this would have on legal immigrants, unless citizens voted idiots in office (doubtful). And besides, illegal people lived in the US for a very long time and they are not going away...NEVER. I am sorry but this has to be said. How will denying them Licenses make them move away? Heck, how long until people catch on and start charging illegal people for driving them to their illegal job LOL. What about the bus? How will this law stop illegal people from taking the bus? Besides, Illegal people will not be affected by losing the ability to get loans or credit. They do not own houses…THEY ARE IN HIDDING!!!!!!! Get it? They can not have an address, so they can not have their name on a lease or mortgage, even if they did have a DL. They rent, probably using somebody else’s name (relative, sympathizer from same ethnic background, crocked citizens who want to make an extra buck under the table). Illegal people lived below the radar for years, and they are very darn good at it. It takes a special kind of person to jump over a fence and live illegally in a country. You know, the kind that does not follow laws. They will find a loop hole in any system.

The only people who will suffer from this new law are the people who played by the rules; the ones who got here through legal channels, not the ones who jumped over a fence or swam across a river). The ones who own houses, a legal job, car loans, house mortgages, car insurance and many other things that will be almost impossible to get or maintain once they don’t have a DL, or one that says “Temporary” on it. That Temporary DL might as well read “HI. I am here temporary in the US, and could probably leave at any time. It doesn’t matter that I have a Green card application pending and am on way to become a resident. It doesn’t matter that I have been here in MI for 12 Years (TRUE – 12 years in May this year for me; all in MI.) It doesn’t matter that I have three degrees from MI. I am temporary. Now would you please give me a loan? Or would you please help me refinance my house? Or approve me for a credit card? You see, I have been here 12 years, legal all of it, and silly me I thought I could try to get my piece of the American pie. I bought stuff, you see. A big screen TV, a Blue Ray Player, an XBOX 360, a nice car, and pretty much all of it is on credit and might require more credit or loans to keep myself afloat in this darn economy.” Or it might as well read “Hi officer I am a foreigner. I am sorry my tail lamp is out. Would you please be fair to me and treat me the same way you would treat anybody else who is from around here? Would you please not treat me like a foreigner? It doesn’t matter that after 12 years here in MI English pretty much became my first language to the point that I now have trouble writing in my first language.” (TRUE. My Arabic sucks now after never having used it in 12 years. But hey I am a da*n foreigner now to anybody who checks my ID. That’s the bouncer at the Club for admission, the store clerk to ID my Credit Card,…….. list goes on and on).

And do not even get me started on the idea of using your country’s DL. It is obscene that any law maker would even for a second believe that is a viable option. What about H1 holders? That visa is for three years, and is renewable for another 3 years. With the back logs, the average GC application is taking 4 years (probably about double that for my Indian brothers and sisters. I feel your pain). Let’s take best case scenario. An H1 holder applies for green card the second he sets foot here in the US and it takes 4 years for him to obtain GC. That is 4 years that this person can not obtain a MI DL, and therefore can not pretty much buy anything over a $100 in value. Ask yourself, when was the last time you bought something over $100, even $50, using cash. Credit man, Credit. What company will issue a credit card to someone with a foreign passport or DL??? None. H1 visas are different compared to say F1 visas. H1 visa applicants do not have to show financial statements saying “I am coming in this country with enough money to pay for myself”. H1’s rely on their US paycheck to cover expenses. That means they are living pay check to pay check like every other legal person. Residency makes no difference on this issue. Get ready to live on cash only. How did law makers over look this? No way in heck a person who was trusted enough to be voted into office did not think of that. Are they trying to force all legal immigrants to move out of MI?

What about F1 students? These kids bring money with them from outside to cover tuition, books, and all other expenses. Kiss that cash flow goodbye, Michiganders. Why would any 18 year old want to come to MI where he won’t be able to drive? They will go to other states and take their money with them. Hey who needs that cash? MI is doing great. It doesn’t get any more go-go than this MI economy. Good job law makers, keep up the good work.

One other point: MI is home of the Motor City. Ever ask yourself why detroit does not have a subway system? Everybody is supposed to own at least one car. Makes senesce, don’t it? This is the capital of the darn invention. Are we H1 holders supposed to ride Detroit buses in our suits and ties. H1s are not offered to mechanics or pizza delivery boys. H1s are offered to educated professionals who work in professional environments. I work in an office in business clothes. And I mean no offence to the public transportation system here in MI, but I took the Bus before, and I am never reliving that delightful experience again. If you want to know what I am talking about, wear a suit and a tie, carry a suitcase, and catch any bus in Detroit or anyone of the close by cities. I dare you.

Does anyone know who I can write to in our government (I think after 12 years I earned the right to call it mine, regardless of what’s in my wallet.) If Tennessee passed laws to allow Temporary Visa holders obtain unmarked DL’s, then there is precedence for us here in MI to press for the same thing. It might be over for new DLs, but what about all of us who are already here and have DL’s? Shouldn’t we at least get grandfathered in?

We need a third category. 1) Legal Resident; 2) Legal non-resident 3) LEGAL NON-RESIDANT WHO IS IN THE PROCESS OF BECOMING LEGAL RESIDANT.

There has to be a fair solution that doesn’t take away the right we legal non-residents (WORKING ON BECOMING RESIDANTS) have to move freely and own property w/o spelling it out to everybody around us that we are foreigners, and at the same time gives the majority of citizens a sense that they actually accomplished something with their effort to rid Michigan of illegal people (sorry but I still do not believe this law will make a lick of difference will illegal people. At best, they will move to a different state. It still an American problem. Think national people, not just state level. On a national level, this laws doesn’t mean anything).

I am sorry if I offended anybody, but I really needed to vent.

mbartosik
02-05-2008, 04:00 AM
AAB, the current law was very politically driven.

The new bill (962) I can tell you was voted on a "party line vote" with Republicans giving us the **** end of the stick without pausing to consider and discuss testimony.

All your points regarding international licenses were clearly made at many levels.

Don't just vent, get those letters written (I mean the ones to President).

walking_dude
02-05-2008, 10:57 AM
AAB, Welcome to Immigration Voice.

Yeah, the situation is bad. We did testify on Bill 962. But, that bill creates problems of its own. It will not be going anywhere.

If you want to write to someone write to Governor Granholm. A similar issue was fixed in TN by its Governor through Executive Order. Surely, Granholm can do that in MI too. We have a letters campaign on this.

http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16888

Other option is lawsuit. Right now, there's no forward movement on this front.

walking_dude
02-06-2008, 02:47 PM
Bill 962 (DL bill which gives only 1 year license to EAD users) has been passed by MI senate. House has it's own bills which don't include REAL ID. Due to differences in the two versions it may become a long drawn process

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/business-14/1202316574219960.xml&storylist=newsmichigan

mbartosik
02-07-2008, 09:47 PM
Anyone interested in being a plaintiff against MI SOS please contact walking_dude or myself mark at immigrationvoice.org
There is no cost involved to you other than a little time (hours not days most likely).

Need replies by about 2/9/2008 -- ie. urgently.
I cannot since I live in NY and thus do not have any legal standing.
I'll need full contact details if you are interested.

santb1975
02-08-2008, 01:41 AM
Please stand up for ourselves

mdmd10
02-08-2008, 10:20 AM
Your efforts have borne fruit Vivek, Srini and Mark:

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/news-50/1202426061147230.xml&storylist=newsmichigan

House bill would allow legal immigrants to get driver's licenses.

We can change the Topic title.

optimist578
02-08-2008, 11:02 AM
Your efforts have borne fruit Vivek, Srini and Mark:

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/news-50/1202426061147230.xml&storylist=newsmichigan

House bill would allow legal immigrants to get driver's licenses.

We can change the Topic title.

Great news !!!!!
But why does the news say "The new state policy applies only to first-time applicants for driver's licenses" ? Did not follow that.
Although I am not from MI, I am happy for them....

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please join the Administrative Fixes letter campaign - it is for our benefit

walking_dude
02-08-2008, 11:02 AM
IVs efforts in getting the MI DL issue fixed has been covered by media

http://blog.mlive.com/wmbr/2008/02/a_wrong_turn.html

"Michigan has already lost 30,000 residents to recession. It can ill-afford to lose thousands of workers and students, which will be disastrous to its economy and universities," contended Vivek Prabhu, the head of not-for-profit Immigration Voice's Michigan branch.

AAB
02-08-2008, 06:49 PM
"The Republican-led chamber approved by a 28-9 vote a bill that would allow legal immigrants to get temporary licenses"

Anybody knows any more details on this? What does Temporary means? Is this the one that's only a year long and says Temporary on it?

mbartosik
02-08-2008, 10:31 PM
I have not read the house bill, but hope to this weekend.

However, everything in the senate bill about temporary licenses was bad. So I suspect temporary means TEMPORARY written on it so banks may not accept for mortgages etc. Also only valid for 1 year. However, since the Real ID requirements were removed it is likely to be less bad than senate bill. My plan is to catch it in conference which is where the real battle is.

We still have some work to do, mostly with the house.
How much work I can do in the next several days I don't know.
I live in NY and have other IV things to do too.

I'm still hoping that some in IV in MI will stand with us for some litigation. Replies are needed this weekend. So far I have just one.

bestin
02-08-2008, 10:53 PM
Your support is now needed for You

Where are all those leaders From Michigan (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ivmi)

Time to stand upagain i am not in tone with this comment os yours.Why blame the leaders alone.They are doing whatever they can though they all have licence for atleast 2 years from now.It is not that they are special humans or paid seperate.Whatever they are doing is beyond their regular works for our concerns.

Atleast the affected could come forward if they wish.

mbartosik
02-09-2008, 12:21 AM
Here is an example of want MI house democrats are after

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2007-2008/billengrossed/House/pdf/2007-HEBH-5535.pdf

I see only a couple of minor technical clarifications e.g. are they requiring a SSN. I'll try to pursue this next week.
I can see no mention of "temporary". Where ever "temporary" is used for us it is bad news.

The bill that I link to has the following:
[(d) "Resident" means every person who resides in this state and
establishes that he or she is legally present in the United States.
This definition applies to the provisions of this act only.

Which is almost exactly the sort of language I had recommended in a position paper presented to them. They added the item (d) above this week. Maybe partly a result of our work? Maybe just common sense?

As I said in prior post the important thing is not what's in house bill or senate bill, it is what gets agreed in committee and that's what I'll be targeting. I'm still going to be concentrating on the letter campaign so my time on this will be limited.

I wanted to get the evil parts out of the senate bill, but now we'll target the committee debate where they try to resolve differences.

lazycis
02-11-2008, 02:43 PM
Another interesting article on the issue
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080207/OPINION02/802070343/1068/OPINION

claudia255
02-13-2008, 08:44 AM
Please click on the link below. NPR had a piece this morning on legal immigrants and the DL rule in Michigan.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18937753 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18937753)

when
02-14-2008, 08:39 AM
Same report also said......
Mary Sue Coleman president of U of M had harsh words against the new DL rule
Foreign students, researchers, doctors, nurses, professionals and compaines are refusing to come to MI

walking_dude
02-14-2008, 09:50 AM
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080214/OPINION01/802140325/1008

"One member of Immigration Voice, a group of foreign-born professionals in the United States, describes how he came to America in 1999 as an international student and was later hired on an H-1B temporary visa. His green card application has been pending for years. He has not visited his home country for five years and recently moved to Michigan from Missouri for work reasons.

"My Missouri license will expire in days, and I can't get a Michigan driver's license. I can't walk 11 miles to work in this cold weather, since there is no bus service and I can't take time off to go to my home country" to attempt to obtain an "international" driver's license."

mdmd10
02-14-2008, 12:37 PM
http://www.aclumich.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=567