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View Full Version : A peaceful rally with offense ??


tcsonly
09-19-2007, 02:39 PM
We conducted a peaceful rally and I had a hard time trying to understand Jay's speech (Logiclife) about offensive stand. How does a peaceful rally and an offensive stand mix up together.
Was that the real message we want to convey to the law makers standing in front of the Capitol hill?
Was this speech prepared in advance and screened by other core members ?

So, if we're going to take an offensive stand, what's our move in that direction ??

arnab221
09-19-2007, 02:46 PM
What Jay said made perfect sense .If you did not get what Jay meant . Here it is for you .

A rally is always meant to protest something ( nobody does a rally to appreciate something ) . Out protests were so far confined to sending e-mails , faxes and calling senators , reporters and also internal lobbying . This is called passive protest . Where you are not really coming out into the open and are trying to win from behind .

Now we come out in the open in an Offensive manner and conduct a peaceful rally to "offcially protest " the injustice happenning to us . So " going on the offense" in english does not mean " going up in Arms". It means to do something much more forcefully which in our case is to make sure that the policymakers in Capitol listen to our voices .

paskal
09-19-2007, 02:46 PM
going on the offense to answer half truths and lies....since when is that an issue? when we go on a peaceful protest we are raising our issues and standing up for ourselves. since when does answering malicious propoganda aimed at us not with that?

srikondoji
09-19-2007, 02:49 PM
Going on offense call from jay was received with applause.
As we are a democracy, we should ignore the poster 'tcsonly' and silently do our work.
--sri

nixstor
09-19-2007, 02:53 PM
We conducted a peaceful rally and I had a hard time trying to understand Jay's speech (Logiclife) about offensive stand. How does a peaceful rally and an offensive stand mix up together.
Was that the real message we want to convey to the law makers standing in front of the Capitol hill?
Was this speech prepared in advance and screened by other core members ?

So, if we're going to take an offensive stand, what's our move in that direction ??

offense and defense need to be interepretred in the sense of football game.

offense does not mean that we are going to get physical or something similar. It only means that we are going to pursue this aggresively and get some congressional action. We will not stay defensively and expect things to happen.

akhilmahajan
09-19-2007, 02:54 PM
Going on offense call from jay was received with applause.
As we are a democracy, we should ignore the poster 'tcsonly' and silently do our work.
--sri

No we can't. He is just trying to understand.
We need to educate ppl. you can't keep on ignoring ppl.

In democracies you try to educate ppl and then its up to them what they think. So, folks lets keep on trying.

Never stop doing that. our strength is to educate ppl, make them understand the problem.

This is my opinion.

GO IV GO

tcsonly
09-19-2007, 02:55 PM
Going on offense call from jay was received with applause.
As we are a democracy, we should ignore the poster 'tcsonly' and silently do our work.
--sri

Thanks for your comment Sri.
Receiving a ton of applause doesn't mean that it's the right thing.

logiclife
09-19-2007, 02:56 PM
We conducted a peaceful rally and I had a hard time trying to understand Jay's speech (Logiclife) about offensive stand. How does a peaceful rally and an offensive stand mix up together.
Was that the real message we want to convey to the law makers standing in front of the Capitol hill?
Was this speech prepared in advance and screened by other core members ?

So, if we're going to take an offensive stand, what's our move in that direction ??

People like Lou Dobbs, Programmer's guild and Anti-Immigrants have been on an offense for a long time. They slander us and impugn our credibility and contributions.

They accuse us of taking jobs away from US citizens, even though they fully know that US dept of labor certifies these Green card applicants to be doing jobs no US citizens are willing qualified or able to do.

Therefore, it is time for us to go on an offense against Lou Dobbs and others who use their message machine to attack us. We should fight back and attack on their lies and half-truths and spins, rather than being on the defense.

Immigration Voice activities have always been and will always be peaceful in nature and in actions. However, our message and speech should be bolder and more on the offense when rebutting the accusations thrown at us.

We should point out that what Lou Dobbs is advocating (stopping foriegn workers from competing in US for jobs) is going to hurt US because it will encourage outsourcing. No one in USA wants outsourcing. Not even Lou Dobbs. Yet, he is causing exactly that by going on a attack against foriegn workers and US companies.

US companies have made it very clear that if Tech workers and talent are kept out of USA and if the tech workers go back to their home countries, we will follow them (and outsource jobs). Look at Microsoft's blunt statement regarding why they opened up a new office in Vancouver Canada and not in Seattle.

I hope you get my point.

Also, being on the offense means that instead of comiserating on message board (which is defense), we should be vocal and loud and rebutt the attacks (offense) with strong speech and words. That's what offense means.

Thanks.

tcsonly
09-19-2007, 02:56 PM
offense and defense need to be interepretred in the sense of football game.

offense does not mean that we are going to get physical or something similar. It only means that we are going to pursue this aggresively and get some congressional action. We will not stay defensively and expect things to happen.

Well said & thanks for the clarification.

dilvahabilyeha
09-19-2007, 03:06 PM
People like Lou Dobbs, Programmer's guild and Anti-Immigrants have been on an offense for a long time. They slander us and impugn our credibility and contributions.

They accuse us of taking jobs away from US citizens, even though they fully know that US dept of labor certifies these Green card applicants to be doing jobs no US citizens are willing qualified or able to do.

Therefore, it is time for us to go on an offense against Lou Dobbs and others who use their message machine to attack us. We should fight back and attack on their lies and half-truths and spins, rather than being on the defense.

Immigration Voice activities have always been and will always be peaceful in nature and in actions. However, our message and speech should be bolder and more on the offense when rebutting the accusations thrown at us.

We should point out that what Lou Dobbs is advocating (stopping foriegn workers from competing in US for jobs) is going to hurt US because it will encourage outsourcing. No one in USA wants outsourcing. Not even Lou Dobbs. Yet, he is causing exactly that by going on a attack against foriegn workers and US companies.

US companies have made it very clear that if Tech workers and talent are kept out of USA and if the tech workers go back to their home countries, we will follow them (and outsource jobs). Look at Microsoft's blunt statement regarding why they opened up a new office in Vancouver Canada and not in Seattle.

I hope you get my point.

Also, being on the offense means that instead of comiserating on message board (which is defense), we should be vocal and loud and rebutt the attacks (offense) with strong speech and words. That's what offense means.

Thanks.

yep! There you go, on the Money! well said! I totally agree!

anilsal
09-19-2007, 03:10 PM
to be on the offensive right there with the rally.

He said, "Rather than take cr*p from everyone who is spreading lies and propaganda, be on the OFFENSIVE to rebut them".

This is the right strategy.

Who WANTS to hear lies about you, your job and your presence in this country?

srikondoji
09-19-2007, 03:18 PM
I still stand by what i said coz....

In democracy, leaders care about, what majority wants. They don't go by what is right and what is wrong. Majority in US think we are stealing jobs and thats why lawmakers think this is hot-button issue. Even though lawmakers know that this is not true, they are still reluctantly standing by the majority.

That said, what jay said was completely right and we have every right to point out the following.
"If you can bring best and brightest football players and issue Green cards in 2 months, then why don't you apply same rules to Skilled immigrants?"

If that is offense to you, then why did you even come to the rally?
Remember we were protesting in DC and that is by itself an offense of the following kind.
"You are not treating us well, so we are on streets protesting your indifference". Even though this is mild offense, it is still an offense.
You actually are contradicting yourself.

--sri

Thanks for your comment Sri.
Receiving a ton of applause doesn't mean that it's the right thing.

gemini23
09-19-2007, 03:21 PM
Well said Kondo.

srikondoji
09-19-2007, 03:30 PM
Thanks dude.

Again what jay said about football players, cut a chord with majority of us at the Capitol hill and we should go with that offense.
Coz, thats what majority of us there liked.

--sri
Well said Kondo.

walking_dude
09-19-2007, 04:35 PM
Issue is not what logiclife said or meant. Words and, as we are learning, images can always be taken out of context and twisted.

2 examples

1) Infamous PERM interview goof up by some attorney used as ammo in every freakin' forum

2) Lou Dobbs purported telecast of IV rally footage in a news item about Illegal Immigration on CNN

I can give a detailed description of how any harmless statement can be spinned into meaning something different altogther, by combining it with unrelated images. But desist from doing so here... as some anti-immigrant may actually do it.

Whatever was said, is water under the bridge. At least in the future everyone needs to be careful about the words being spoken and how all they can be used.

To TcsOnly:

Don't worry, IV is still in the "defensive". If IV was on the offensive, it would be suing Lou Dobbs behind, for using IV rally footage in a news item about Illegal Immigration. For what he did was not "free speech" - but libel and slander. IV and the movement has been attacked in the most vicious way. Will IV go on offence on this?


Thanks dude.

Again what jay said about football players, cut a chord with majority of us at the Capitol hill and we should go with that offense.
Coz, thats what majority of us there liked.

--sri

americandesi
09-19-2007, 04:41 PM
They accuse us of taking jobs away from US citizens, even though they fully know that US dept of labor certifies these Green card applicants to be doing jobs no US citizens are willing qualified or able to do.



But hereís my stand on labor certification for GC. Itís a BIG JOKE. How many employers can assure that the labor certification process was carried out in good faith?

The entire process is filled with treachery and deceit till the end. The newspaper ads are given in the miniscule fonts so that no one notices them. Even it some one responds to the ad, itís blindly ignored. In case a person qualifies for an interview, the primary goal would be to disqualify him rather than to recruit him.

Letís take the case of H1 employers. Thereís a DOL regulation prohibiting the hiring of H1ís employees if 50% of employees on their payroll are already on H1 and the number of employees in the company is 50. Just to escape the regulation, these employers start new companies and go on a hiring spree for H1ís again.

In case they need to hire an American, they hire him as a contractor rather than an employee so that in case of layoff they need not prove to DOL that they tried to rehire him before applying for LC.

The DOL regulations to ensure that thereís no serious displacement of American Workers is beaten to pulp by most employers.

Oh yeah! DOL has the power to conduct random audits. But the number of employers slipping through their fingers is far more than the oneís getting caught.

PS: I am not an anti-immigrant. These are my thoughts and I have seen all these happening.

walking_dude
09-19-2007, 05:00 PM
But here’s my stand on labor certification for GC. It’s a BIG JOKE. How many employers can assure that the labor certification process was carried out in good faith?

<< ...and rest of the jazz straight from NumbersUSA web site>>



If you don't believe in the system, why do you participate in it? If you believe that your Labor certification is ill-gotten, why don't you ask your company to withdraw it? Sure they did all those bad things when they did your LC, didn't they? Or do you believe moral high-ground applies only to others and not you?

Don't be a demagogue. Walk the talk and show by example. Or else Shut The You-know-what up





PS: I am not an anti-immigrant. These are my thoughts and I have seen all these happening.

But you sure do sound like one. Browsing all that NumbersUSA articles has surely gotten to you , and developed self-destructive ideas in your head. You need to attend some De-addiction Therapy ASAP

alterego
09-19-2007, 05:13 PM
Then fix that system. Improve on the recruitment methods, employer enforcements etc. The answer is not to shun everyone in an awful waiting list.
The main point is that it is now widely acknowledged that this country faces a skills shortage. Employers are crying out and so far being ignored, yet americans don't want outsourcing. It really is like wanting to keep your cake as well as to eat it.
Short of a bandwidth restriction and therefore pushing this country into the stone age(figuratively), how is it that these restrictionists propose to keep those intellectual property( eg software) from being manufactured St Elsewhere?
The point is they CANNOT. Noone can! If the US stops buying it, will it stop the rest of the world?
As I said this is a type of ideology that will not allow the US to take its rightful leadership role. We can help locate the big industries of tomorrow here, and that's what we would want as well.

logiclife
09-19-2007, 05:15 PM
But here’s my stand on labor certification for GC. It’s a BIG JOKE. How many employers can assure that the labor certification process was carried out in good faith?

The entire process is filled with treachery and deceit till the end. The newspaper ads are given in the miniscule fonts so that no one notices them. Even it some one responds to the ad, it’s blindly ignored. In case a person qualifies for an interview, the primary goal would be to disqualify him rather than to recruit him.

Let’s take the case of H1 employers. There’s a DOL regulation prohibiting the hiring of H1’s employees if 50% of employees on their payroll are already on H1 and the number of employees in the company is 50. Just to escape the regulation, these employers start new companies and go on a hiring spree for H1’s again.

In case they need to hire an American, they hire him as a contractor rather than an employee so that in case of layoff they need not prove to DOL that they tried to rehire him before applying for LC.

The DOL regulations to ensure that there’s no serious displacement of American Workers is beaten to pulp by most employers.

Oh yeah! DOL has the power to conduct random audits. But the number of employers slipping through their fingers is far more than the one’s getting caught.

PS: I am not an anti-immigrant. These are my thoughts and I have seen all these happening.

The department of Labor is run by US Federal Government. Not by Immigration Voice. IV core group does not sit on the steering committee of the department of labor. Neither do the tech executives who hire foriegn workers and sponsor their Green cards and labor certs.

If labor department is a big screwup (ya think ?) then it should be fixed. Immigration voice represents legal immigrants who obey the law. If the departments of government are incompetant to enforce the law then Immigration Voice cannot do anything about it.

And if a portion of the system is broken or incompetant, then it must be fixed. If someone drives recklessly while drunk, then that person's driver's license should be revoked. That doesnt mean that the entire DMV should be eliminated and driving cars should be banned. Every year, hundreds of people commit fraud and collect other people's social security check and encash it. There are people who dont report the death of their family members who are senior citizens and keep their social security check in their pocket and keep encashing it. Does that mean that Social security is a joke? Just like labor cert for skilled hi-tech immigration? Does that mean that we should all completely scrap social security?

If DOL is broken, then fix it. Make sure labor certs are done properly. We support that. We support everything that the US Government can do to protect the interests of US citizens. We know that US Government should represent US citizens, not foriegners. We are not asking Congress or the Administration to put us ahead of US citizens. We are asking Congress to make up its mind whether they want us here or not. One way or the other decision. Either they want us here or they dont. It cannot be both. IF its a bad idea for USA to have skilled foriegn labor on its soil, then fine, stop all the immigration programs (Temporary like H1, L1 and permenant like green card programs) and send a clear message. We will go back and work on those same jobs from our home countries that will be eventually outsourced. If its a good idea to have skilled foriegn labor on US soil, then make the system work in a way that people dont spend 10-12 years on a probationary limbo and live without career advancement. Make green card process faster.

Either ways, We want congress to make up its mind. We are not begging for staying here, we are asking for a decision because we are getting mixed signals. The employers here sponsor us, and the government gives a half assed message by keeping a low numerical quota. Its neither abolished (if its a bad idea) not raised (if its a good idea). 535 Members of legislature, thousands of staffers, thousands of think tanks, The entire congressional research service at their disposal, and they cant come up with a decision for 3 years ? Are you friggging kiddding me ?

But dont blame us for failings of DOL.

We dont run DOL.

You and people you vote for in elections do.

GCBy3000
09-19-2007, 05:16 PM
What you said is partially correct and partially wrong.

1. Employers do the green card process for a candidate who is already working for them for the past couple of years. This candiate has gained knowledge and respect and they want to retain him for their own business purpose. Is there any law to retain this guy other than processing a green card? So they are using the green card process as an avenue to retain this candidate, but targetting this specific candidate. I dont see any conspiracy in this one.

2. Tell me a new employer who is giving ad for a new employee and starts a green card process for a new OUTSIDE candidate ignoring all the potential applied candidate. If some one does like this, then it is to be condemned. Otherwise, business is doing what is right for their business within the limits of law. Nothing is wrong with this.

But here’s my stand on labor certification for GC. It’s a BIG JOKE. How many employers can assure that the labor certification process was carried out in good faith?

The entire process is filled with treachery and deceit till the end. The newspaper ads are given in the miniscule fonts so that no one notices them. Even it some one responds to the ad, it’s blindly ignored. In case a person qualifies for an interview, the primary goal would be to disqualify him rather than to recruit him.

Let’s take the case of H1 employers. There’s a DOL regulation prohibiting the hiring of H1’s employees if 50% of employees on their payroll are already on H1 and the number of employees in the company is 50. Just to escape the regulation, these employers start new companies and go on a hiring spree for H1’s again.

In case they need to hire an American, they hire him as a contractor rather than an employee so that in case of layoff they need not prove to DOL that they tried to rehire him before applying for LC.

The DOL regulations to ensure that there’s no serious displacement of American Workers is beaten to pulp by most employers.

Oh yeah! DOL has the power to conduct random audits. But the number of employers slipping through their fingers is far more than the one’s getting caught.

PS: I am not an anti-immigrant. These are my thoughts and I have seen all these happening.

walking_dude
09-19-2007, 05:21 PM
Well said. Good "offence" :)

The department of Labor is run by US Federal Government. Not by Immigration Voice.
....

If someone drives recklessly while drunk, then that person's driver's license should be revoked. That doesnt mean that the entire DMV should be eliminated and driving cars should be banned.
...

We know that US Government should represent US citizens, not foriegners. But dont blame us for failings of DOL. We dont run DOL.

.....

crystal
09-19-2007, 05:24 PM
My friend ..

Lot of anti-immigrants sure laughed at ur joke.

you can also tell to audience here (including lot of anti-immigrants) there are lot of other jokes like wife cant work on H4,need of AP document to travel, Renewal of EAD every year, sticking to same job description all along, stupid RFEs asking for all ur paystubes throughout ur stay here..

Itís a BIG JOKE. ?

walking_dude
09-19-2007, 05:31 PM
Since we are joking here, how about this joke... Don't have the Green Card. No need to apply. Or has it become stale by repetition?


My friend ..

Lot of anti-immigrants sure laughed at ur joke.

you can also tell to audience here (including lot of anti-immigrants) there are lot of other jokes like wife cant work on H4,need of AP document to travel, Renewal of EAD every year, sticking to same job description all along, stupid RFEs asking for all ur paystubes throughout ur stay here..